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How does Honor know so much?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by saber964   » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:34 pm

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zuluwiz wrote:One thing has bothered me for some time about that "tradition" of the captain going down with the ship. That is not the tradition in the US Navy. There, it's "the captain is the last man off." The Japanese Imperial Navy DID have that tradition, and possibly the Germans, but not the European navies, or the USN. Live to fight again, that's the way.



Going down with the ship was usually tied to the captain making sure everyone else got off safely and the ship going catastrophically down suddenly.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:31 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:The notion is that a sub needs to be steered to the bottom. She needs to descend as deeply as the ocean goes to limit the possibility of high-tech diving equipment recovering trade secrets. Or even high-tech cameras. So, relying on scuttling charges only, may simply lay her down in shallow waters. IOW, not deep enough! Heck, using scuttling charges only might simply lay her down on the bottom of a very shallow harbor.


If all the water nearby is well below crush depth it's going to implode. If you have to destroy things in shallow water you need a lot more explosives.

Yep, that was my point, you need a lot more explosives. Even then, chances are that critical pieces will be recovered. Like the secret propulsion unit and the baffles on October. But a sub needs steering all the way to doomsday, or it could end up caught on the Continental Shelf, or Barrier Reefs, or ice shelves, etc.

I think it was Hunt for Red October where I noticed the steering columns of subs are steering wheels, and that one person could steer it. I wonder if subs are automated enough that only the Captain is needed to pilot her. Slave everything to the Conn.

How's that for automation, HV.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:58 pm

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cthia wrote:
... snippage...
Yep, that was my point, you need a lot more explosives. Even then, chances are that critical pieces will be recovered. Like the secret propulsion unit and the baffles on October. But a sub needs steering all the way to doomsday, or it could end up caught on the Continental Shelf, or Barrier Reefs, or ice shelves, etc.

I think it was Hunt for Red October where I noticed the steering columns of subs are steering wheels, and that one person could steer it. I wonder if subs are automated enough that only the Captain is needed to pilot her. Slave everything to the Conn.

How's that for automation, HV.


It takes at least two to "steer" a submarine, one working the rudder, and one the diving planes. Plus one on the ballast tanks and a throttle man back in the engine room. One person can't "yank and bank" a submarine.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:40 am

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Fox2! wrote:
cthia wrote:
... snippage...
Yep, that was my point, you need a lot more explosives. Even then, chances are that critical pieces will be recovered. Like the secret propulsion unit and the baffles on October. But a sub needs steering all the way to doomsday, or it could end up caught on the Continental Shelf, or Barrier Reefs, or ice shelves, etc.

I think it was Hunt for Red October where I noticed the steering columns of subs are steering wheels, and that one person could steer it. I wonder if subs are automated enough that only the Captain is needed to pilot her. Slave everything to the Conn.

How's that for automation, HV.


It takes at least two to "steer" a submarine, one working the rudder, and one the diving planes. Plus one on the ballast tanks and a throttle man back in the engine room. One person can't "yank and bank" a submarine.

Thanks Fox2!

I suspected that was the case. Which means -- and gives a new meaning to -- there needs to be a skeleton crew to go down with the ship.* And we all know the Captain will have heroes willing to do just that.

But if the Captain's job is to see every last man to safety, what does a Captain do, faced with morality and duty? Should he allow his men to go down with him to save trade secrets or should he order them to get off?

*I wonder if submarine warfare is where the term "skeleton crew" originated. It would certainly be apropos in the "decayed end." The only thing more apropos would be skeleton (s)crew.

'Ouch!'

'Dammit!'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:46 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
tlb wrote:However I do not understand why someone would scuttle a sub that can still move underwater under its own power. Conversely if it cannot move under its own power, then you scuttle wherever it is; even if it is a harbor, such as Scapa Flow. The important thing is to destroy the cryptographic materials. Don't they have thermite for that?


If you have power but not range (say, a lack of fuel) and do not want the enemy getting their hands on it.

It could also have no weapons and is surrounded by enemy ships.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:If all the water nearby is well below crush depth it's going to implode.

Only if the pressure hull is intact and without major water ingress as it descends.

Otherwise the sub just fills up with water as the it descends and you never get the kind of pressure imbalance that'd overstress the hull to the point of implosion.



So if you scuttle it by opening all the ballast tanks then yea, it's likely to implode. But if you scuttle it by opening or blowing open large seacocks then the pressure in the hull will increase in concert with the exterior pressure as it descends, and you won't get an implosion (though individual pressure containers within or attached to the hull might themselves implode. Similar if it's it going down because something like an anti-submarine mortar blow a large hole in the upper deck and pressure hull - no pressure imbalance, no implossion.

Which might imply that not only does a sub need to be steered to the bottom, she might need to descend as rapidly as possible.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by dscott8   » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:32 pm

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cthia wrote:This has always amused me quite a bit. How does Honor know so much about engineering? She seems to be quite knowledgeable about certain aspects of her Chief Engineer's bailiwick. I would have missed it on a Jeopardy question about how much cross training a CO has.


It's been pointed out in several places that the Meyerdahl genetic modifications resulted in high intelligence and a brighter mind-glow. Might those mods have also brought increased memory capacity? It would be useful at Saganami Island, where the preparation of Queen's Officers would include exposure to all aspects of a ship's operations. By the time she was ready for her middy cruise, she'd be ready for the hands-on exposure to those aspects, and learn even more though experience.

I've often thought that part of Honor's tactical ability comes from her deep interest in military history, and that would be even more effective if (as I expect) she's endowed with greater memory capacity and enhanced abilities at correlation and pattern analysis.

As a former Army officer, I was at least exposed to how every branch operates, even though we were expected to choose a branch and specialize. An officer can do their own specific job better if they understand where that job fits into the big picture. Honor would have trained the same way, but with increased mental capacity and longer learning time due to prolong, she'd have been a walking encyclopedia of military ops by the time she made Admiral.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:09 am

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dscott8 wrote:
cthia wrote:This has always amused me quite a bit. How does Honor know so much about engineering? She seems to be quite knowledgeable about certain aspects of her Chief Engineer's bailiwick. I would have missed it on a Jeopardy question about how much cross training a CO has.


It's been pointed out in several places that the Meyerdahl genetic modifications resulted in high intelligence and a brighter mind-glow. Might those mods have also brought increased memory capacity? It would be useful at Saganami Island, where the preparation of Queen's Officers would include exposure to all aspects of a ship's operations. By the time she was ready for her middy cruise, she'd be ready for the hands-on exposure to those aspects, and learn even more though experience.

I've often thought that part of Honor's tactical ability comes from her deep interest in military history, and that would be even more effective if (as I expect) she's endowed with greater memory capacity and enhanced abilities at correlation and pattern analysis.

As a former Army officer, I was at least exposed to how every branch operates, even though we were expected to choose a branch and specialize. An officer can do their own specific job better if they understand where that job fits into the big picture. Honor would have trained the same way, but with increased mental capacity and longer learning time due to prolong, she'd have been a walking encyclopedia of military ops by the time she made Admiral.

Good point. She is certainly a walking encyclopedia by now. She was certainly influenced by people she looked up to as role models as far as the navy is concerned. Her father undoubtedly instilled a lot of good virtues in Honor about the Navy and what is required to excel and survive.

Who else in Honor's family was in the Navy?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:59 pm

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cthia wrote:
Who else in Honor's family was in the Navy?


Stephanie ended up commanding the Sphinx Forestry Service. I don't remember seeing any other Harringtons mentioned in any of the other story lines set in the time between the discovery of the treecats and the Alfred's service in the RMMC in the back story of In the Beginning.
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Re: How does Honor know so much?
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:14 pm

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cthia wrote:Who else in Honor's family was in the Navy?

Fox2! wrote:Stephanie ended up commanding the Sphinx Forestry Service. I don't remember seeing any other Harringtons mentioned in any of the other story lines set in the time between the discovery of the treecats and the Alfred's service in the RMMC in the back story of In the Beginning.

And we know that her mother's side were mainly doctors on Beowulf. However the uncle was someone important in the Beowulf System-Defense Force.
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