Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 32 guests

1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Theemile   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:05 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5060
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

A provisional Solarian League constitution has been voted on in the wake of the GA destruction of Sol's space borne infrastructure. Unfortunately, the majority of the new governmental structure still needs shaken out. Little is agreed upon from taxation to shared governance.

In the meantime, much of the funds provisionally earmarked for the Navy have been redirected to the rebuilding of Sol's infrastructure. However, sufficient funds were left to be allocated to a single fast tracked development and build project.

As a member of the Solarian Admirality, it's your job to lead the analysis and shuffle through the proposals to develop platforms to match or counter observed GA capabilities. With an eye on a quick return for the development dollars (and time), what one tech tree would you focus on now?

The caveat is while you are directed to one (specific) tech tree, being the SL, the dollars/resources are actually massive, allowing you to throw multiple ideas/iterations at the wall and seeing which one sticks and repeating, with the knowledge that actionable field hardware needs to be in the construction pipeline in mass inside of 24-36 months.

So, knowing that Rome can't be built in a day (er, 24-30 months) - what tech would you work to develop?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:30 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Knowing what the League Navy knows now, might only result in building improved models of the ships that were blown away. The Navy could use the money to begin funding and gathering all the research data that is out there on improving the technology in order to eventually build ships that can survive in the new environment.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:52 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

Assuming I don't have reader advantages, if I'm in the position of a Solly Admiral in charge of an R&D effort, it's a toss up between getting better MDMs than Cataphract's, or LACs/CLACs for defensive blunting.


Solarian Admiralty saw enough about the Manticoran MDM's having a huge advantage over the Cataphract's, that they surely must realize that's the Manticoran primary weapon system and want to work to equalize it. Particularly since every engagement from Byng all the way to the surrender of Sol, featured Manticoran MDMs outperforming matching Solarian weapons by a huge margin.

Second factor to go MDM's.... if you have weapons (almost) as good as Manticore or Alliance, you don't really need their enhanced compensators due to the sheer size of the Solly manufacturing base. Sollies can easily build a hundred new ships or more for every new Allied ship, but if their missiles suck then you're just fast food, not an (almost) equal fight. Having matching weapons with a stunning numerical advantage may just negate the speed because Allies can't run away if you have ships in every single direction with missiles almost as good.

third factor that goes with MDM's, the missile advancements will go very well with improving at least my counter-missiles. Because Solly countermissiles were pretty blind, even for CMs, the better seekers that are mandatory for (true) MDMs, not just the counter-missile strapped to the nose of a standard missile Cataphract, NEED better seekers. So improving my offensive MDMs, would also lead to marginally better CMs, so I'm massively improving my offensive while also gaining minor defensive boosts. And while improving my MDM range, I'll probably gain technology insights that would lead to extending CM range simply due to shared technology.


Buuuut... they also saw Manticoran deployment of LACs and heard the horror stories of what said LACs were capable of doing. Less than 100 taking out entire task forces of battlecruisers AND most of their screen? And that the Manticorans are hauling them around in purpose-built carriers, and even mounting them on what appear to be fast freighters (unknowing about the other capabilities of the David Taylors). Given the devastation they were capable of, and being a rather smart Admiral (for a Solly) I can easily follow the math to come up with how tiny their crews must be and how lopsided the tonnage ratio can be, even for 'failed attacks'. And that the Manticorans think they were powerful enough of a weapon to deploy aggressivly, would mean I'm gonna want something in yelling distance to dissuade the Super-LACs. So much like post-Theisman Haven, I'm gonna want to build my own version of something like the Cimeterre's, and build at least a graser/laser variant and a missile variant (because if Ferrets WERE being used, it's hard to tell a Ferret from a Katana as an enemy, they're both missile heavy)





as a sidenote: did the Sollies ever actually get data home about Grand Alliance wallers being pod-layers? Hard evidence, actually SEEING pods spilling out the back? Most of the engagements that featured Allied podnaughts, also heavily featured pre-deployed System-Defense pods. Wouldn't the Sollies think the wallers are just using tractored pods within the wedge, because even their "largest" salvos never threatened Allied waller formations, so they can't truly know Allied formations are rolling fresh pods into space on an as-needed basis.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:22 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8269
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

If I'm forced to pursue only a single "tech tree" for the movement I'd go for SD(P)s.

You need them for their offensive punch anyway - and they give the most flexibility for upgrading to future missiles once I'm finally allowed to put funding into improvements to cataphracts, proper MDMs, FTL fire control, control missiles, etc.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:40 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3854
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Somtaaw wrote:as a sidenote: did the Sollies ever actually get data home about Grand Alliance wallers being pod-layers? Hard evidence, actually SEEING pods spilling out the back? Most of the engagements that featured Allied podnaughts, also heavily featured pre-deployed System-Defense pods. Wouldn't the Sollies think the wallers are just using tractored pods within the wedge, because even their "largest" salvos never threatened Allied waller formations, so they can't truly know Allied formations are rolling fresh pods into space on an as-needed basis.

Wasn't the attack on the Solarian System, that climaxed UH, dominated by pod-layers? I would hope that they have a good read on that action.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by kzt   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:11 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11337
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

You need mdms. The truth about the Honorverse is that suviability is relative, and dealing with sufficient missile volley density nothing is survivable. So focus on being able to deploy massive salvos, not so much on any given ship type.

If you can deploy salvos of 200,000 missiles with good terminal accuracy at 30 second intervals it isn’t really all that important how tough your ships are.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:45 pm

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

tlb wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:as a sidenote: did the Sollies ever actually get data home about Grand Alliance wallers being pod-layers? Hard evidence, actually SEEING pods spilling out the back? Most of the engagements that featured Allied podnaughts, also heavily featured pre-deployed System-Defense pods. Wouldn't the Sollies think the wallers are just using tractored pods within the wedge, because even their "largest" salvos never threatened Allied waller formations, so they can't truly know Allied formations are rolling fresh pods into space on an as-needed basis.

Wasn't the attack on the Solarian System, that climaxed UH, dominated by pod-layers? I would hope that they have a good read on that action.


It was, but the only time they launched a big salvo was against the Reserve, and it was (almost) immediately out of hyper. But that doesn't 100% mean that Sollies got good looks at the podnought sterns, or in fact even recognize what those strange stern doors even do... after all, Haven barely had a clue and that was with first-hand Manticore COMMAND DECK reports from Warner Caslet and Shannon Foraker.

That's why I actually question whether the SLN even knows what podlayers are, or how they work. Hell, they might think the Grand Alliance was referring to their wallers as being Podlayer-class superdreadnoughts, which was some kind of codename for being the SDs that were designed around having more fire control links specifically for controlling pods.

So the Sollies just simply may not even know about the pod-cores, rails, and how pod patterns work. And if they don't know the concept even exists, they can't design an entire class around it. Which puts them back in 1905ish, or more specifically prior to First Hancock and Honor vs Chin. Pods have been reintroduced to capital ship combat, and they know the pods allow destroyers and cruisers to throw around capital ship missiles, but the very 'thought' of redesigning your SD to become part-freighter specifically to cart said pods around may not even occur for another 10 years or so, under wartime pressurization.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:53 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Would MDMs be such a big deal for the SLN without FTL and control channels at current engagement ranges?

The first thing they need to fix is naval intelligence. NAVINT?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:34 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4103
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:Would MDMs be such a big deal for the SLN without FTL and control channels at current engagement ranges?

The first thing they need to fix is naval intelligence. NAVINT?


Yes.

More to the point, FTL without true MDM is not as useful. FTL makes true MDMs shine, but the incremental improvement for DDMs isn't worth it, if you had to choose one of the two. The Cataphract's range was about 2 light-minutes; reducing the control loop to 4 seconds is useful, but nowhere as useful as being able to fire those from 3, 4 or 5 light-minutes away.
Top
Re: 1924 PD - Rebuilding the Solarian League Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:40 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4103
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Somtaaw wrote:Solarian Admiralty saw enough about the Manticoran MDM's having a huge advantage over the Cataphract's, ...

Second factor to go MDM's....

third factor that goes with MDM's...


I'm with Somtaaw's arguments here. LACs are an important tech tree, but the MDMs are far more important. LACs are important for both offence and defence, but I'd argue that lacking for LACs is a gap, but lacking for MDMs is fatal.

If the other side outranges you, they can put far more missiles down your throat and negate any quantitative advantage you may posses. Having loads of LACs to intercept missiles is good, but if the other side keeps the range open and with it a far greater kill ratio, your force will suffer attrition to a greater factor, forcing you to concede the battle.

And as Somtaaw's arguments for the MDM said, out of that tech tree come improved CMs.
Top

Return to Honorverse