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GRASERS

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Re: GRASERS
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:17 am

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tlb wrote:Despite the skepticism; unless we find something that gives the actual wavelength of the Graser, we have no proof that the author does not intend that the output is in the Gamma Ray range. Saying that Gamma Rays are produced by nuclear transitions is not proof when were are dealing with a scientific base that includes fusion; which obviously involves involves changes to the nucleus: which is precisely "transmutation".


The best I can find is this from IFF, which does differentiate them.

The author begins with the photon wavelength. One might as well use frequency or energy because they are all mathematically equivalent but weapons designers fairly consistently use wavelength. Early space energy weapons used photons in the ultraviolet, visible, infrared, and even the radio range. These wavelengths are impractical to focus at contemporary combat ranges so modern weapons use shorter wavelength photons in the X-ray to gamma ray range. Indeed, modern space weapon lasers are so commonly X-ray lasers that the term “laser” is generally synonymous with “xraser” in naval parlance. Their rarer gamma emitting cousins are called “grasers.” Both of these words have their obvious origin with the ancient “laser” though the fact that many such weapons do not operate on the principle of “stimulated emission” is generally forgotten. Confusion sometimes results because different scientific and engineering communities have different definitions of exactly what constitutes the cutoff between X and gamma rays. An astronomer’s X-ray might be a particle beam engineer’s gamma ray and so on. There appears little hope at this writing of ever clearing this up completely. This article uses the terminology of the Interstellar Association of Astronautical Engineers that a photon with a wavelength greater than one picometer (10-12 meters) is an X-ray and light with a wavelength shorter than that is a gamma ray. This value was chosen because one pm is a good cutoff point when discussing armor and weapons effects. This is because light begins to exhibit deep penetrating characteristics in common spacecraft materials for wavelengths shorter than this so that a graser cannon operating at 0.1 picometers damages a target in different ways than a laser at 10 picometers.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:00 pm

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Theemile wrote:
This article uses the terminology of the Interstellar Association of Astronautical Engineers that a photon with a wavelength greater than one picometer (10-12 meters) is an X-ray and light with a wavelength shorter than that is a gamma ray. This value was chosen because one pm is a good cutoff point when discussing armor and weapons effects. This is because light begins to exhibit deep penetrating characteristics in common spacecraft materials for wavelengths shorter than this so that a graser cannon operating at 0.1 picometers damages a target in different ways than a laser at 10 picometers.


There you go, they just changed the definition of what gamma ray is and blamed on the engineers, for whom 2+2 can be 5 for sufficiently large values of 2.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by tlb   » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:50 pm

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Theemile wrote:The best I can find is this from IFF, which does differentiate them.
This article uses the terminology of the Interstellar Association of Astronautical Engineers that a photon with a wavelength greater than one picometer (10-12 meters) is an X-ray and light with a wavelength shorter than that is a gamma ray. This value was chosen because one pm is a good cutoff point when discussing armor and weapons effects. This is because light begins to exhibit deep penetrating characteristics in common spacecraft materials for wavelengths shorter than this so that a graser cannon operating at 0.1 picometers damages a target in different ways than a laser at 10 picometers.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There you go, they just changed the definition of what gamma ray is and blamed on the engineers, for whom 2+2 can be 5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

For your amusement, here is what the Wikipedia article on Gamma Rays says about the difference between X-rays and Gamma Rays:
The conventional distinction between X-rays and gamma rays has changed over time. Originally, the electromagnetic radiation emitted by X-ray tubes almost invariably had a longer wavelength than the radiation (gamma rays) emitted by radioactive nuclei. Older literature distinguished between X- and gamma radiation on the basis of wavelength, with radiation shorter than some arbitrary wavelength, such as 10−11 m, defined as gamma rays. Since the energy of photons is proportional to their frequency and inversely proportional to wavelength, this past distinction between X-rays and gamma rays can also be thought of in terms of its energy, with gamma rays considered to be higher energy electromagnetic radiation than are X-rays.

However, since current artificial sources are now able to duplicate any electromagnetic radiation that originates in the nucleus, as well as far higher energies, the wavelengths characteristic of radioactive gamma ray sources vs. other types now completely overlap. Thus, gamma rays are now usually distinguished by their origin: X-rays are emitted by definition by electrons outside the nucleus, while gamma rays are emitted by the nucleus. Exceptions to this convention occur in astronomy, where gamma decay is seen in the afterglow of certain supernovas, but radiation from high energy processes known to involve other radiation sources than radioactive decay is still classed as gamma radiation.
The Moon as seen by the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, in gamma rays of greater than 20 MeV. These are produced by cosmic ray bombardment of its surface. The Sun, which has no similar surface of high atomic number to act as target for cosmic rays, cannot usually be seen at all at these energies, which are too high to emerge from primary nuclear reactions, such as solar nuclear fusion (though occasionally the Sun produces gamma rays by cyclotron-type mechanisms, during solar flares). Gamma rays typically have higher energy than X-rays.

For example, modern high-energy X-rays produced by linear accelerators for megavoltage treatment in cancer often have higher energy (4 to 25 MeV) than do most classical gamma rays produced by nuclear gamma decay. One of the most common gamma ray emitting isotopes used in diagnostic nuclear medicine, technetium-99m, produces gamma radiation of the same energy (140 keV) as that produced by diagnostic X-ray machines, but of significantly lower energy than therapeutic photons from linear particle accelerators. In the medical community today, the convention that radiation produced by nuclear decay is the only type referred to as "gamma" radiation is still respected.

Due to this broad overlap in energy ranges, in physics the two types of electromagnetic radiation are now often defined by their origin: X-rays are emitted by electrons (either in orbitals outside of the nucleus, or while being accelerated to produce bremsstrahlung-type radiation), while gamma rays are emitted by the nucleus or by means of other particle decays or annihilation events. There is no lower limit to the energy of photons produced by nuclear reactions, and thus ultraviolet or lower energy photons produced by these processes would also be defined as "gamma rays". The only naming-convention that is still universally respected is the rule that electromagnetic radiation that is known to be of atomic nuclear origin is always referred to as "gamma rays", and never as X-rays. However, in physics and astronomy, the converse convention (that all gamma rays are considered to be of nuclear origin) is frequently violated.

In astronomy, higher energy gamma and X-rays are defined by energy, since the processes that produce them may be uncertain and photon energy, not origin, determines the required astronomical detectors needed. High-energy photons occur in nature that are known to be produced by processes other than nuclear decay but are still referred to as gamma radiation. An example is "gamma rays" from lightning discharges at 10 to 20 MeV, and known to be produced by the bremsstrahlung mechanism.

Another example is gamma-ray bursts, now known to be produced from processes too powerful to involve simple collections of atoms undergoing radioactive decay. This is part and parcel of the general realization that many gamma rays produced in astronomical processes result not from radioactive decay or particle annihilation, but rather in non-radioactive processes similar to X-rays. Although the gamma rays of astronomy often come from non-radioactive events, a few gamma rays in astronomy are specifically known to originate from gamma decay of nuclei (as demonstrated by their spectra and emission half life). A classic example is that of supernova SN 1987A, which emits an "afterglow" of gamma-ray photons from the decay of newly made radioactive nickel-56 and cobalt-56. Most gamma rays in astronomy, however, arise by other mechanisms.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:18 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:You're limited by the optical resolution of your aiming system even if the graser focuses better.

Honorverse creates enormously powerful gravitational fields routinely. And really, you don't think you can easily find in a telescope a 200 km sized object at 180 million km range?

We were spotting 160 km asteroids in the 1850s. Without a guide that tells you to the millimeter where the centeroid of the object is, which tends to make it a bit easier to correctly aim your telescope. I also suspect that telescopes have improved a bit in the Honorverse over the 3000 years since Abraham Lincoln was president.


You aren't actually spotting the asteroids in the 1850s. The asteroid is sub-pixel (yeah, I know they didn't have pixels, but there's still a minimum resolving unit) size but reflects enough light to be detected anyway. You can spot an object against black considerably farther away than you can pick it out with a background behind it. (Say, the planet the station is in orbit about.)
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Re: GRASERS
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:58 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:You aren't actually spotting the asteroids in the 1850s. The asteroid is sub-pixel (yeah, I know they didn't have pixels, but there's still a minimum resolving unit) size but reflects enough light to be detected anyway. You can spot an object against black considerably farther away than you can pick it out with a background behind it. (Say, the planet the station is in orbit about.)


Very few stars have ever been imaged by more than a single pixel. 1 pc of distance means an object of 1 AU would subtend an angle of 1 arc-second; so 0.01 AU (roughly 1.5 million km) would be 0.01 arc-second or 10 milli-arcsecond (10 mas). 1.5 million km is smaller than the Sun's diameter, so the Sun could not be imaged by more than a single pixel by the JWST at 1 pc away. And the nearest star to us after the Sun is 1.31 pc away.

The VLT has a resolution of 2 mas. A star 1.5 million km in diameter would still be a pixel if it is over 5 pc away and there are 52 known star systems in that range from us, none of which contain a giant star. Radio astronomy with VLBI can achieve sub-milliarcsecond resolution - Wikipedia says the VLBA can get to 0.17 mas, but I don't know if those count for taking images of stars.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:10 am

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tlb wrote:For your amusement, here is what the Wikipedia article on Gamma Rays says about the difference between X-rays and Gamma Rays:
The Moon as seen by the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, in gamma rays of greater than 20 MeV. These are produced by cosmic ray bombardment of its surface.


While your quote is talking about the same thing I am I must quibble with Wikipedia here--cosmic ray bombardment is nuclear, not electron shell. This it is correctly called gamma radiation.

I also need to take back my original claim that gamma means transmutation or annihilation--I had forgotten about atom smashers. While I can't believe the grasers are based on ramming ion beams together it is a means of obtaining gamma radiation that doesn't require transmutation.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:18 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:You aren't actually spotting the asteroids in the 1850s. The asteroid is sub-pixel (yeah, I know they didn't have pixels, but there's still a minimum resolving unit) size but reflects enough light to be detected anyway. You can spot an object against black considerably farther away than you can pick it out with a background behind it. (Say, the planet the station is in orbit about.)


Very few stars have ever been imaged by more than a single pixel. 1 pc of distance means an object of 1 AU would subtend an angle of 1 arc-second; so 0.01 AU (roughly 1.5 million km) would be 0.01 arc-second or 10 milli-arcsecond (10 mas). 1.5 million km is smaller than the Sun's diameter, so the Sun could not be imaged by more than a single pixel by the JWST at 1 pc away. And the nearest star to us after the Sun is 1.31 pc away.

The VLT has a resolution of 2 mas. A star 1.5 million km in diameter would still be a pixel if it is over 5 pc away and there are 52 known star systems in that range from us, none of which contain a giant star. Radio astronomy with VLBI can achieve sub-milliarcsecond resolution - Wikipedia says the VLBA can get to 0.17 mas, but I don't know if those count for taking images of stars.


Agreed, but note that you're not hauling something like the VLBI along on a raid. I don't think you're even bringing the VLT.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:40 am

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tlb wrote:For your amusement, here is what the Wikipedia article on Gamma Rays says about the difference between X-rays and Gamma Rays:
The Moon as seen by the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, in gamma rays of greater than 20 MeV. These are produced by cosmic ray bombardment of its surface.

Loren Pechtel wrote:While your quote is talking about the same thing I am I must quibble with Wikipedia here--cosmic ray bombardment is nuclear, not electron shell. This it is correctly called gamma radiation.

I also need to take back my original claim that gamma means transmutation or annihilation--I had forgotten about atom smashers. While I can't believe the grasers are based on ramming ion beams together it is a means of obtaining gamma radiation that doesn't require transmutation.

Perhaps you missed these parts of the quote, in particular that cosmic bombardment need not be of nuclear origin:
Due to this broad overlap in energy ranges, in physics the two types of electromagnetic radiation are now often defined by their origin: X-rays are emitted by electrons (either in orbitals outside of the nucleus, or while being accelerated to produce bremsstrahlung-type radiation), while gamma rays are emitted by the nucleus or by means of other particle decays or annihilation events. There is no lower limit to the energy of photons produced by nuclear reactions, and thus ultraviolet or lower energy photons produced by these processes would also be defined as "gamma rays". The only naming-convention that is still universally respected is the rule that electromagnetic radiation that is known to be of atomic nuclear origin is always referred to as "gamma rays", and never as X-rays. However, in physics and astronomy, the converse convention (that all gamma rays are considered to be of nuclear origin) is frequently violated.

-- snip --

Another example is gamma-ray bursts, now known to be produced from processes too powerful to involve simple collections of atoms undergoing radioactive decay. This is part and parcel of the general realization that many gamma rays produced in astronomical processes result not from radioactive decay or particle annihilation, but rather in non-radioactive processes similar to X-rays.

If nuclear processes can create photons with wavelengths in the ultra-violet or longer, then there is nothing useful in proclaiming that any photon created by a nuclear process is a "Gamma Ray"; because you still need an energy cut-off to stop something that does not even qualify as an X-ray from being called a gamma-ray. It makes much more sense to follow the astronomers and go with an energy cut-off from the beginning.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:20 pm

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tlb wrote:If nuclear processes can create photons with wavelengths in the ultra-violet or longer, then there is nothing useful in proclaiming that any photon created by a nuclear process is a "Gamma Ray"; because you still need an energy cut-off to stop something that does not even qualify as an X-ray from being called a gamma-ray. It makes much more sense to follow the astronomers and go with an energy cut-off from the beginning.


In modern usage gamma actually covers more than x-ray, the only point to the distinction is the source.
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Re: GRASERS
Post by tlb   » Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:44 pm

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tlb wrote:If nuclear processes can create photons with wavelengths in the ultra-violet or longer, then there is nothing useful in proclaiming that any photon created by a nuclear process is a "Gamma Ray"; because you still need an energy cut-off to stop something that does not even qualify as an X-ray from being called a gamma-ray. It makes much more sense to follow the astronomers and go with an energy cut-off from the beginning.

Loren Pechtel wrote:In modern usage gamma actually covers more than x-ray, the only point to the distinction is the source.

That is not the modern usage in Astronomy:
Gamma-ray astronomy is the astronomical observation of gamma rays, the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation, with photon energies above 100 keV. Radiation below 100 keV is classified as X-rays and is the subject of X-ray astronomy.
I consider that much more reasonable; everywhere else, the electromagnetic spectrum is divided simply by wavelength (or wavelength or energy, which equivalent).
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