Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next

Somtaaw wrote:Trojan's were designed and manned prior to the Medusa/Harrington podnoughts introduced the enhanced automation, and BuShips finally bite the missile and accepted that "large crews for the sake of tradition is bad". So they had the crew of a heavy cruiser due to BuShips not willing to change, I'd put money down that a Trojan II-class could have a crew size closer to that of the Wolfhounds, and they'd still be a better choice because you'd still have all those empty cargholds to pack cargo into. Seal the cargoholds that actually hold the LAC bays or graser mounts using some form of "bonded cargo" to prevent foreign Custom Parties from inspecting them and you'd be set.

Actually, unlike the armed ex-IAN auxiliaries that you later mention Bachfish using, HoS specifically notes that "BuShips decided to eliminate all cargo storage from the Trojan and use all of the volume freed up for a number of weapon systems"

But I'll grant you you could probably redesign them for a smaller crew. It's still a pretty crappy design for anti-piracy patrols.
And again, Silesia was the enormous anomaly as Honorverse piracy goes - a nation rich enough in traffic to be a rich hunting ground (far richer than your average verge nation) that was too dysfunctional and corrupt to secure it's own systems. Hell, with system governors as likely to be aiding the pirates as attempting to suppress them. But also situated such that it wouldn't allow outsiders to truly fix the problem and yet sitting at a political balance such that none of its neighbors (whose ships primarily suffered the piracy) were willing to bite the bullet and fix the problem once and for all despite the desires of its government. (Well, until they were )

The best way to suppress piracy is DD or LAC patrols near the hyper limit. If they can't lie doggo and wait for victims to appear, or a naval response will show up and chase them off before they can secure their loot, they'll need to find some other place to hunt. And that doesn't take q-ships or AMC tricking the pirates into attacking -- it involves chasing them off their hunting grounds.

Because picking off the odd pirate doesn't change the economics for the successful ones enough to end piracy -- there's always some new folks who think the odds'll never crap out on them. And as long as piracy is cash positive they'll be able to get the ships and weapons to go with those willing crews. To drive down piracy you need to prevent it from happening in lucrative areas, which means denying them hunting grounds. (Of course if you can identify their funders, or the systems and yards that support them go after those too -- but none of that can really be done better by a AMC than by a real warship. And the real warship is useful if you ever need to do something other that pirate hunting.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Trojan's were designed and manned prior to the Medusa/Harrington podnoughts introduced the enhanced automation, and BuShips finally bite the missile and accepted that "large crews for the sake of tradition is bad". So they had the crew of a heavy cruiser due to BuShips not willing to change, I'd put money down that a Trojan II-class could have a crew size closer to that of the Wolfhounds, and they'd still be a better choice because you'd still have all those empty cargholds to pack cargo into. Seal the cargoholds that actually hold the LAC bays or graser mounts using some form of "bonded cargo" to prevent foreign Custom Parties from inspecting them and you'd be set.

Actually, unlike the armed ex-IAN auxiliaries that you later mention Bachfish using, HoS specifically notes that "BuShips decided to eliminate all cargo storage from the Trojan and use all of the volume freed up for a number of weapon systems"

But I'll grant you you could probably redesign them for a smaller crew. It's still a pretty crappy design for anti-piracy patrols.
And again, Silesia was the enormous anomaly as Honorverse piracy goes - a nation rich enough in traffic to be a rich hunting ground (far richer than your average verge nation) that was too dysfunctional and corrupt to secure it's own systems. Hell, with system governors as likely to be aiding the pirates as attempting to suppress them. But also situated such that it wouldn't allow outsiders to truly fix the problem and yet sitting at a political balance such that none of its neighbors (whose ships primarily suffered the piracy) were willing to bite the bullet and fix the problem once and for all despite the desires of its government. (Well, until they were )

The best way to suppress piracy is DD or LAC patrols near the hyper limit. If they can't lie doggo and wait for victims to appear, or a naval response will show up and chase them off before they can secure their loot, they'll need to find some other place to hunt. And that doesn't take q-ships or AMC tricking the pirates into attacking -- it involves chasing them off their hunting grounds.

Because picking off the odd pirate doesn't change the economics for the successful ones enough to end piracy -- there's always some new folks who think the odds'll never crap out on them. And as long as piracy is cash positive they'll be able to get the ships and weapons to go with those willing crews. To drive down piracy you need to prevent it from happening in lucrative areas, which means denying them hunting grounds. (Of course if you can identify their funders, or the systems and yards that support them go after those too -- but none of that can really be done better by a AMC than by a real warship. And the real warship is useful if you ever need to do something other that pirate hunting.

Can Bachfish receive any upgrades? Surely his ships are in need of upgrades. With the kind of firepower that may surface during this golden era of platinum piracy, Bachfish's ships may find themselves in a heap of trouble. They may even find Cataphracts firing on them too.

By the way, can a splintered state hire Bachfish to help suppress piracy?

cthia wrote:Can Bachfish receive any upgrades? Surely his ships are in need of upgrades. With the kind of firepower that may surface during this golden era of platinum piracy, Bachfish's ships may find themselves in a heap of trouble. They may even find Cataphracts firing on them too.

By the way, can a splintered state hire Bachfish to help suppress piracy?

Will Captain Thomas Bachfisch even be allowed to operate ships like the Pirates' Bane, now that Silesia has been divided between Manticore and the Andermani? He was on the books as an agent for Naval Intelligence, so do they take over his ships or does he continue to operate his well defended cargo ships? What splintered state would be close enough to Silesia to even be able to approach him?

tlb wrote:Will Captain Thomas Bachfisch even be allowed to operate ships like the Pirates' Bane, now that Silesia has been divided between Manticore and the Andermani? He was on the books as an agent for Naval Intelligence, so do they take over his ships or does he continue to operate his well defended cargo ships? What splintered state would be close enough to Silesia to even be able to approach him?

He's got enough of a good reputation with both the RMN and IAN that he probably could get permission to continue operating them. But even if he does, with piracy effectively gone in the area -- thanks to RMN or IAN presence is every system and the government corruption heavily suppressed -- how would he convince shippers it was still worthwhile to pay extra for shipping on his well defended cargo ships?


I mean, if I had reason to I assumed I could hire an armored truck with armed guards to pick up and deliver a package for me. But with essentially zero risk that my shipment will be intercepted by armed robbers I've no incentive to pay the extra over normal FedEx or UPS rates.


Now if he can't keep turning a profit in Silesia he might be able to take those ships elsewhere - but the local government(s) would (all) have to be willing to allowed armed civilian ships into their space. Silesia only allowed them because ONI worked some magic and helped arrange the greasing of palms that got Bachfisch the warrant that technically made his two ships SCN naval auxiliaries; and hence not privately owned. But that would hold no weight with anybody else's government; even if the Silesian Confederacy still existed as an independent government.

Also he needs a reasonably high level of trade in the area to keep his hulls filled, and enough of a perceived piracy risk that people will pay the extra he needs to cover the extra costs operating an armed ship entails.
But very few places in the verge are as prosperous as Silesia (as a whole) was -- so very, very few are going to have the same level of concentrated traffic. And the few that do probably aren't such governmental basket cases that they're unable to operate effective local anti-piracy patrols... But if they have anti-piracy patrols that reduces the demand for shippers to pay extra to ship on armed freighters.

His business model worked in a very specific situation, but he may not be able to find another such niche to operate in now that the multi-century running sore of Silesia is finally getting cleaned up.

Jonathan_S wrote:Obsolete?
* Any waller that isn't a Keyhole II equipped Apollo capable SD(P). non-podlayers of course, be even the 1st gen podlayers need either a long refit (8-9 months) to add Apollo or should be retired in favor of new builds.

* Any BC that lacks Keyhole. (So all the Reliants and older, plus any first flight Agamemnons that didn't get refit). Now they may find that a 2.5 mton BC(L) is too expensive for the number of peacetime hulls they need, so maybe scale down to a 1.6 or 1.7 mton BC(medium) -- though that probably gives up too much capability in a tube firing design.

* Any CA older than Sag-C

* Any CL older that Avalon (though Avalon herself may be considered obselecent and they may want to consider a new design.

* Any DD older that Roland or Wolfhound. (Though both of those designs are seen as problematic, and they stopped Wolfhounds after, IIRC, just 19 -- so again this may require a new design).

But anything older than those simply lacks the missile defenses, or missile range, to hope to be useful against MAlign designs or even things we'd expect to see shortly out of the rebuilding SLN. (Now they're still better than pretty much anybody else's design; but that margin can be pretty small especially in the light units which are most likely to end up in dangerous situations during peacetime -- and so those should, IMO, have priority on new builds once they've got a design the Admiralty is happy with)

So building those replacement hulls will be quite a bit of shipbuilding; even is most of it seems concentrated in the smaller units below the wall.

You could use a single Apollo capable SD per BatRon. Like a flagship. The other SDs don’t need to hae KH2 to fire apollo pods.

kzt wrote:You could use a single Apollo capable SD per BatRon. Like a flagship. The other SDs don’t need to hae KH2 to fire apollo pods.

You could but that doesn't make it a good idea.

In fact it seems like the same kind of shortsighted idea that gave them the Prince Consort + Crusader (flagship) CA combo -- and all the problems that caused. (Except worse because losing that unique ship in combat means you didn't just lose your squadron commander but also your squadron's force multiplier)

Hopefully you built enough KH2 ships that all BatRons still have one even when their normal one is down for service, refit, or repair.


As a short term thing yes you could operate mixed squadrons (and they have) -- but I'd prefer more than a single KHII ship per squadron. However I wouldn't want that to be a long term goal -- but merely an interim method of organizing the remaining non-Apollo SD(P)s as you work on building their replacements.

[And defensively a non-KH SD(P) is far less capable than a KH one. But given that a KH SD(P) can be upgraded to a KHII in just 8-9 weeks I can't imagine they'd leave any, long term, at just KHI -- so running KHII w/ original non-KH Medusas makes the squadron weaker defensively and gives a higher risk of its entire Apollo FTL capability being knocked out early in the fight]

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Can Bachfish receive any upgrades? Surely his ships are in need of upgrades. With the kind of firepower that may surface during this golden era of platinum piracy, Bachfish's ships may find themselves in a heap of trouble. They may even find Cataphracts firing on them too.

By the way, can a splintered state hire Bachfish to help suppress piracy?

Will Captain Thomas Bachfisch even be allowed to operate ships like the Pirates' Bane, now that Silesia has been divided between Manticore and the Andermani? He was on the books as an agent for Naval Intelligence, so do they take over his ships or does he continue to operate his well defended cargo ships? What splintered state would be close enough to Silesia to even be able to approach him?

There's no need to be close to Silesia. It can happen by word of mouth. The GA can be an intercessor for him. Actually, it would work out well for the GA to keep an intelligent pair of eyes out there. Bachfish could keep an eye and ear out for any new developments by the SLN. In fact, if this successor state is cozying up next to the GA then Bachfish could be "on loan and off the record." He might end up in a good place to receive black market news.

I know Bachfish can't have any of the classified toys, but is there any newer tech that he could get? I can't think of anything that isn't classified.

At any rate, I can't think of a single reason why clipping Bachfish's wings would be a good idea. In fact, every one of his squashed victims would add to his legend. And each one should be published for the Galaxy to see. A big Fish eating little guppies might put enough fear in the stomach of pirates to keep them grounded. But upgrade him!

cthia wrote:There's no need to be close to Silesia. It can happen by word of mouth. The GA can be an intercessor for him. Actually, it would work out well for the GA to keep an intelligent pair of eyes out there. Bachfish could keep an eye and ear out for any new developments by the SLN. In fact, if this successor state is cozying up next to the GA then Bachfish could be "on loan and off the record." He might end up in a good place to receive black market news.

I know Bachfish can't have any of the classified toys, but is there any newer tech that he could get? I can't think of anything that isn't classified.

At any rate, I can't think of a single reason why clipping Bachfish's wings would be a good idea. In fact, every one of his squashed victims would add to his legend. And each one should be published for the Galaxy to see. A big Fish eating little guppies might put enough fear in the stomach of pirates to keep them grounded. But upgrade him!

No one is suggesting that. What we're suggesting is that Bachfisch couldn't operate at a profit anywhere else.

He has higher operating costs than a normal freighter because he has a larger crew, more maintenance work, more expensive parts, and a comparatively smaller cargo hold. That means he must charge a premium, or he's out of the business.

The question is whether there's sufficient demand for his services elsewhere. The argument is that there isn't, that Silesia was a unique situation.

There will be pirates elsewhere and warlords. But they won't be as endemic as what happened in Silesia: the vast majority will die on the vine after one or two attacks, when they can't sustain their crew and their ships. If they instead move on to other regions, while that doesn't reduce piracy overall, it changes the shipper and/or recipient of the freight, which means shippers that would be paying for Bachfisch won't any more and shippers that should be paying for him won't know yet.

That is to say, the need will exist, but it won't be sufficiently concentrated in time and space to make an operation like Bachfisch's profitable.

And this is without considering the fact that his ships were allowed to armed because they were listed as SCN auxiliaries. That is a much harder feat to repeat.

Jonathan_S wrote:The best way to suppress piracy is DD or LAC patrols near the hyper limit. If they can't lie doggo and wait for victims to appear, or a naval response will show up and chase them off before they can secure their loot, they'll need to find some other place to hunt. And that doesn't take q-ships or AMC tricking the pirates into attacking -- it involves chasing them off their hunting grounds.

Because picking off the odd pirate doesn't change the economics for the successful ones enough to end piracy -- there's always some new folks who think the odds'll never crap out on them. And as long as piracy is cash positive they'll be able to get the ships and weapons to go with those willing crews. To drive down piracy you need to prevent it from happening in lucrative areas, which means denying them hunting grounds. (Of course if you can identify their funders, or the systems and yards that support them go after those too -- but none of that can really be done better by a AMC than by a real warship. And the real warship is useful if you ever need to do something other that pirate hunting.

Well actually the best way of picking of pirates is to stop giving them ANY easily taken ships. Warships can only be in so many places because they are purely money-sinks, they consume money without generating any. So long as even one shipping company runs 100% unarmed freighters, piracy will continue to exist. See how even in modern times, Somalia (and other countries) can literally use rowboats to board and capture ships because they rarely carry small arms, let alone have crewmen patrol as part of their daily duty.

Silesia is also far from the only place pirates operated; it just happened to be if not the worst then one of them. There were also not inconsiderable piracy around Yeltsin and Masada. Haven probably subsidized Masadan pirates heavily and joined in themselves, but that piracy problem predated Haven-Manticore involvement, and only disappeared when Grayson Naval units started heavily patrolling after allying with Manticore. Grayson has an upper limit on how many units of both naval and civilian it can field in total, arming her freighters means they can more easily stand-down naval units without sacrificing that anti-piracy protection.

Solarian League space almost certainly also had pirates. They openly tolerated known bribery and OFS governors stealing everything not nailed down, so low-grade 'piracy' was certainly tolerated within reason. I could easily see one corrupt Interstellar or another, using piracy to try and flip ownerships of various systems, we even got a small glimpse of that during UH.

But Solly pirates probably had a Gentlemen's Agreement with merchies. There would be no raping & pillaging but the merchies would also surrender immediately on challenge, the ship would be seized (and sold to a different interstellar), crew held hostage and treated well as captives for a (low) ransom. Frontier Fleet casually ignored open slaveships right in front of them, let alone the actions they'd do for the Gendarmes, so I can also see FF to a certain degree ignoring piracy, so long as the 'rules' were followed... break the rules and get rough with the merchies who'd scream after the ransom and FF would take the gloves off.


Freighters are large enough, even if you don't use the SD weaponry and eliminate the podlayer rails entirely, they can very easily use just 5% of their maximum cargo capacity, by fielding an 1850-ish Destroyer worth of weaponry. A Havoc-class for example, had a broadside of 5 missiles and 3 Lasers with 3 PDLCs and 3 CM, swap to Grasers and possibly invert the mixture (5 Graser, 3 Missile) and you're better armed than most pirates with enough anti-missile to avoid anything short of intentional complete destruction.

No pirate is going to intentionally destroy merchant ships (armed or not), and anybody at war with you simply doesn't need to bother wasting time with capturing when destruction is already the primary goal.


There's also a LARGE difference between an Armed Merchant Craft, and a full up Q-ship in this universe. A Q-Ship is generally built from the keel-up, or heavily modified to be primarily for combat, and it won't be carrying any 'trade goods'. There's arguments both for and against Sirius having some/lots of cargo capacity, Peep Military Intelligence had to have expected Pavel Young to have 'possibly' been convinced to send an inspection party aboard so she probably had at least SOME cover cargo. While she was armed close to heavy cruiser quality, she did NOT even remotely have the weaponry of the SD her tonnage was closer to.


An Armed Merchant Craft, would be Bachfish's two freighters, or even the Atlas-class liners from HAE. They were somewhere between 75-90% civilian (freighter or passengers) and the remainder auxiliary warship. They could fight if they absolutely had to, but their primary purpose was trading under Bachfish, or tourism in the case of Hauptman's liners. Bachfish self-admits that pirates generally disappeared when he was in the area, sometimes just from hearing his ships were there and armed, and those that chose to stick around anyway occasionally found themselves victims to his guns.


Honor's Trojans fall somewhere between the 2 extremes. They were armed more like Sirius and other Q-Ships, but they were still primarily a civilian design that focused on cargo space and not being able to soak up battle damage. The Trojans were somewhere around upper-DN to low-SD tonnage, but DNs half her size carried more than twice the broadside, and Trojans had absolutely huge on-board storage for spare parts and other consumables, and still had plenty of space they could take aboard cargo and move it from one system to another.

Basically the reverse idea from Path of Furies, where DeVries stole the ridiculously fast but low cargo alpha-synth, then used it to start a cover of being a smuggler; Trojans or rather an improved & modernized variant could pick up contracts here and there to move bulk cargos around that don't need speed. This frees up 'true' freighters to stay in patrolled space, or high-traffic routes that no pirate would ever dare try for simply due to numbers.

cthia wrote:There's no need to be close to Silesia. It can happen by word of mouth. The GA can be an intercessor for him. Actually, it would work out well for the GA to keep an intelligent pair of eyes out there. Bachfish could keep an eye and ear out for any new developments by the SLN. In fact, if this successor state is cozying up next to the GA then Bachfish could be "on loan and off the record." He might end up in a good place to receive black market news.

I think one of the issues is that the successor states are far more likely to be single system polities than anything as large as Silesia. Remember in terms of star systems and geographic area it was larger than the Andermani Empire, having around 60 inhabited star systems to the Andi's 21.

So finagling Bachfisch permission to operate armed private freighter (excuse me, SNC armed auxiliaries) over the entire 105 LY across Confederation required greasing the hands of just one central government (sure, it's highly dysfunctional and not always entirely in control of its systems; but its the only government you needed permission from).

Trying to arrange the same permission with singleton successor states requires convincing each one individually to grant that permission -- a many times longer and more tedious process. (Also, as dysfunctional as the Confederacy was, they do have something of a navy, and so their government wasn't worried that two armed freighters could be a threat to them. Whereas many of these verge states have no defenses and could be taken over (again) by a single armed freighter. So they're probably going to be a lot more nervous about allowing same anywhere near their planet)

That's not to say that his eyes and ears might not be useful. Just that the RMN's ONI might have a significantly harder time finagling permission for him to operate in these new areas -- and might have to directly subsidize his operational costs if they want him to stay in business.