What next after To End in Fire

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Doubtful, in the short or medium term. That's a system that was wholly indoctrinated in the kool-aid and was left in tatters. Right now, it's a drain in the GA's resources, as opposed to an asset.

Long-term, that could change. But I expect that the books will end before that comes to pass.

Loren Pechtel wrote:Why is it much of a drain? It was self-sufficient before, nothing was destroyed that would change that.

One thing that comes to mind immediately is that Galton should have all the technical references for the streak drive and they may have the manufacturing to build them. That is, if their orbital manufacturing facilities were not part of the big blow up at the end of the book. I do not remember if the final explosions were limited to the fortresses or including some factory sites also.

tlb wrote:One thing that comes to mind immediately is that Galton should have all the technical references for the streak drive and they may have the manufacturing to build them. That is, if their orbital manufacturing facilities were not part of the big blow up at the end of the book. I do not remember if the final explosions were limited to the fortresses or including some factory sites also.

We don't know what exactly Honor destroyed, but she fired 2 million missiles. That's a LOT of infrastructure. Possibly everything that was able to contribute to the military effort, which to me includes the heavy industries. So it's possible the system is able to feed itself, but it's no longer an economic powerhouse.

By the way, if each missile, given economies of scale, costs $250,000 Manticore dollars, Honor fired half a trillion dollars in missiles.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

n7axw wrote:Except for some rather brief comments, by Simoes after they got him out of Mesa, they don't know about the spider. They do know about the sharks which Simoes was deeply involved with, but whether or not he was able to give Foraker, Hemphill, etc al. enough info to reverse engineer the shark is unknown at this time. What the Alliance does know about is the effective cloaking. However, Honor's fleet is able to detect both the old style SLN style and the more advanced MAlign cloaking on the hastas. That is at least encouraging.

Quick correction there: they know about the streak drive, which Simões was involved with, not the Sharks. The Sharks were battleship- or dreadnought-sized ships using the spider drive, so he should know absolutely nothing about them. You're probably just confusing the term.

There's also a bit of downplaying in this book. It's impossible to know for sure where RFC is going with this, short of him posting his intentions somewhere (or reading the next book!), but during MoH they were certain it was a new drive technology and Simões simply gave a name to it.

It's similar to the detection of the Hastas via bowshock. That's encouraging, but it could mean nothing. As we know, the spiders have very low acceleration, so they may never reach high enough interplanetary speeds to cause a detectable bowshock.

As for the end of the story, I think that it is safe to say that the GA is going to encounter some nasty surprises when they finally get to Darius. Going out on a limb where it could be sawed off behind me, I think this leaves room for one more book. If I am right, everything following that will be books and anthologies filling in back story.

Hmm... yes, it could be all wrapped up in a single book. It would be an UH-sized book, but it could be done. But it could be split into more than one, especially if we are to see an "A Rising Thunder" style escalation of catastrophes.

It may be that RFC thinks of wrapping up this part of the timeline and focus on the Manticore Ascendant and Star Kingdom books. One problem for long series is that new readers can't jump in at any point. That means the readership of the N+1 book should be lesser than or equal to the Nth book.

Thanks for the correction. I was thinking of the streak drive. Whether not our favorite duo at bolt hole can reverse engineer it will probably depend on how narrow of a slice of the streak Simoes was working on along with how clear of an understanding of the whole design he had.

As for the spider, he was aware of it and could probably explain the general principles. But he hadn't actually worked on the design. That would leave him short on the details.

Don

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If the Alignment was being safe, anything related to specs for anything would only have been kept on either a command fortress or the militarized production facilities doing the work. Nothing on the planet- absolutely nothing.
An enclave on Galton where none to almost none of the rest of the planetary population was allowed is mentioned. That could be presented as a HQ Administration center with all the planetary operations controlled from there but it and the planet effectively kept out of sharing of any serious information about the system, the military and policy other than as it would affect the ground. It would also function as an R&R location for the system's elite.
Sure, the planet probably would be able to continue to support the food and most basic needs of it's population but the GA is going to have to provide a government oversight if not actually take over the government and have occupation people on the ground.

Between the orbital forts and the infrastructure which was either destroyed in combat or self destructed, there should be extremely little information connecting Galton with anywhere else or what business was being done with anyone. Certainly nothing that involves the Alignment directly and never Darius. Recall how Detweiler was somewhat antsy comming into the Galton System and gettin through to meet the people who were controlling the system. He knew about Alamo, he knew the system was an expendable diversion and I wondered if what he was shown as thinking could be part of a possibility that the Alignment in control of Galton just might be having second thoughts of knowing that suicide was not only the only future result WHEN not if the GA found them? True Believers, burn everything in one last spasm of defiance and try to suck the attacker into committing an EE on the system at large by lashing out with one massive final attack after having surrendered?

Wreckage of forts and fabrication facilities.....well, sure...probably in fairly small parts at various high velocities heading out of system, in the gravity pull of the planet of the star and now the GA has to find things that might have records or examples of stuff. Heck, how many unexpended weapons remain in the system that were manufactured by Galton to check as examples?
What is the likely scenario that every member of the military above the rank of LT, Enlisted above Petty Officer and "civilian" on any of the habitats/industrial platforms had their own dose of nanite assassins so IF they survived and were questioned they would just die. That would be very Alighemnt......generic nanite assassin treatment in your standard healthcare package as soon as you met a very low set of criteria.
Cynical but very Alignment.

Brigade XO wrote:If the Alignment was being safe, anything related to specs for anything would only have been kept on either a command fortress or the militarized production facilities doing the work. Nothing on the planet- absolutely nothing.

It's not possible to not keep some specs on the industrial nodes fabricating the thing in the first place. It might not be a blueprint and much less the theory behind the engineering, but it's still enough technical data to duplicate parts or the whole.

Nothing on the planet, though, but only because the planet shouldn't have any industrial nodes in the first place. As you said:

[qupte]An enclave on Galton where none to almost none of the rest of the planetary population was allowed is mentioned. That could be presented as a HQ Administration center with all the planetary operations controlled from there but it and the planet effectively kept out of sharing of any serious information about the system, the military and policy other than as it would affect the ground. It would also function as an R&R location for the system's elite.
[/quote]

Between the orbital forts and the infrastructure which was either destroyed in combat or self destructed, there should be extremely little information connecting Galton with anywhere else or what business was being done with anyone. Certainly nothing that involves the Alignment directly and never Darius. Recall how Detweiler was somewhat antsy comming into the Galton System and gettin through to meet the people who were controlling the system. He knew about Alamo, he knew the system was an expendable diversion and I wondered if what he was shown as thinking could be part of a possibility that the Alignment in control of Galton just might be having second thoughts of knowing that suicide was not only the only future result WHEN not if the GA found them? True Believers, burn everything in one last spasm of defiance and try to suck the attacker into committing an EE on the system at large by lashing out with one massive final attack after having surrendered?

Galton shouldn't have any legitimate business with anyone. If any foreign connections are found, they'll be covert ops and industrial espionage.

Wreckage of forts and fabrication facilities.....well, sure...probably in fairly small parts at various high velocities heading out of system, in the gravity pull of the planet of the star and now the GA has to find things that might have records or examples of stuff. Heck, how many unexpended weapons remain in the system that were manufactured by Galton to check as examples?

Not necessarily very far. Those things were in orbit in the first place. About half of the pieces of what got blown up will be in trajectories leading down the planet, but that's not immediate (despite what you may have heard during the Yawate Strike). Some things will take time to finally enter the thick atmosphere and burn up. Also, note how the gravity on this planet was supposed to be high... that usually means a denser but thinner atmosphere (otherwise the atmospheric pressure on the surface would be too high for habitation).

There's also the other half of what got blown up and is now in a escape trajectory from the planet. But that does not mean high velocity compared to the system. A delta-v of 3 km/s is only ~10% of the orbital velocity of the planet around the star. It would also mean 1 million seconds (over 11.5 days) to get 3 million km away from the original orbital position.

There are probably not many unexpended weapons. The battle lasted long enough that the Galton forces could resupply from any stores. Of course, every time they showed a weapons cache, it fell victim to a brace of missiles, but the end result is the same. There are probably a few remaining scattered here and there, that weren't practical to use, plus whatever was in the production lines before they were shut down.

What is the likely scenario that every member of the military above the rank of LT, Enlisted above Petty Officer and "civilian" on any of the habitats/industrial platforms had their own dose of nanite assassins so IF they survived and were questioned they would just die. That would be very Alighemnt......generic nanite assassin treatment in your standard healthcare package as soon as you met a very low set of criteria.
Cynical but very Alignment.

Or maybe they didn't? Where are the nanites?

If the surviving high-ranking officers have no nanites, then it's a big, gaping hole in the smoke screen.

If they do have nanites, then there have to be plans for them somewhere in the system and chemical industrial plants to make them.

It depends on how paranoid you are. For example, you only have the documents in an encrypted electronic format. When you open it you retrieve the key automatically. If the key server gets all blown up or just zeroized, well, you have a lot of documents that will take until the heat death of the universe to open.

Or unless there is a weakness in the code, which is always possible.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Or maybe they didn't? Where are the nanites?

If the surviving high-ranking officers have no nanites, then it's a big, gaping hole in the smoke screen.

If they do have nanites, then there have to be plans for them somewhere in the system and chemical industrial plants to make them.

What surviving high-ranking officers? Other than any that might be on the planet and not military, just cogs in the administration of the planetary food production etc and security forces for the enclave?

Nanite production could have been limited to one of those large fortress location on any of the military production -part of the stuff that was either destroyed in the fighting or in the suicide by blowing your own stuff up. Possible but very unlikely would be shipping the nanites in from Darius because of the volume you would need. It's a mandatory prophylactic vaccination included in any Prolong treatment regimen.
This is a military system, you take the treatments you are required to and that's it. They don't have to tell you anything and it is going to be done really really early, plus it doesn't actually have any known (that we have been told) side effects. Plans, production and any stocks are in places that are not going to survive the defeat and loss of the system.

Brigade XO wrote:What surviving high-ranking officers? Other than any that might be on the planet and not military, just cogs in the administration of the planetary food production etc and security forces for the enclave?

There should be plenty of them aboard those SD and SD(P) squadrons. At least a handful of Rear Admirals and a dozen to two dozen Commodores.

Unless, of course, they suicided to avoid capture. They could do that with just a bullet to the head, though, no need for nanites. But all it takes is one willing to survive to prove that there are no nanites in them.

Nanite production could have been limited to one of those large fortress location on any of the military production -part of the stuff that was either destroyed in the fighting or in the suicide by blowing your own stuff up.

It's possible, but the problem is that there need to be some traces of it somewhere. Fragmentary information here and there, plans, supplies, unused inventory, etc. Plus, there will be people who had worked on those three stations and did outlive them, because they were caught elsewhere in the system when the fighting started and weren't essential to defence. Particularly the slaves that would have laboured in those production lines.

Cleaning the entire system of any information leading to some thing is very, very difficult. It's also pointless if you're losing anyway: there's no reason the Galton authorities would go to extreme lengths to kill all the workers involved in the production if defeat was total. The fact that you've tried (and probably failed) is another clue.

Possible but very unlikely would be shipping the nanites in from Darius because of the volume you would need. It's a mandatory prophylactic vaccination included in any Prolong treatment regimen.

THAT would be a big mistake. And that's my point: if the nanites were shipped from Darius, there will be no production in Galton for them. And then the fact that there isn't one is another clue that Galton was not the last MAlign redoubt, or even the most important one.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:What surviving high-ranking officers? Other than any that might be on the planet and not military, just cogs in the administration of the planetary food production etc and security forces for the enclave?

There should be plenty of them aboard those SD and SD(P) squadrons. At least a handful of Rear Admirals and a dozen to two dozen Commodores.

Unless, of course, they suicided to avoid capture. They could do that with just a bullet to the head, though, no need for nanites. But all it takes is one willing to survive to prove that there are no nanites in them.

Nanite production could have been limited to one of those large fortress location on any of the military production -part of the stuff that was either destroyed in the fighting or in the suicide by blowing your own stuff up.

It's possible, but the problem is that there need to be some traces of it somewhere. Fragmentary information here and there, plans, supplies, unused inventory, etc. Plus, there will be people who had worked on those three stations and did outlive them, because they were caught elsewhere in the system when the fighting started and weren't essential to defence. Particularly the slaves that would have laboured in those production lines.

Cleaning the entire system of any information leading to some thing is very, very difficult. It's also pointless if you're losing anyway: there's no reason the Galton authorities would go to extreme lengths to kill all the workers involved in the production if defeat was total. The fact that you've tried (and probably failed) is another clue.

Possible but very unlikely would be shipping the nanites in from Darius because of the volume you would need. It's a mandatory prophylactic vaccination included in any Prolong treatment regimen.

THAT would be a big mistake. And that's my point: if the nanites were shipped from Darius, there will be no production in Galton for them. And then the fact that there isn't one is another clue that Galton was not the last MAlign redoubt, or even the most important one.

Or the long shot that I suggested in another thread. Key personnel could have been whisked away on a spider ship. Galton was a good chance to test the effectiveness of the LD.

"Ah, you can't see us can you? But we shall meet again, and since this eye exam has determined that you are blind as a bat, it won't be so pretty for you next time."

cthia wrote:Or the long shot that I suggested in another thread. Key personnel could have been whisked away on a spider ship. Galton was a good chance to test the effectiveness of the LD.

"Ah, you can't see us can you? But we shall meet again, and since this eye exam has determined that you are blind as a bat, it won't be so pretty for you next time."

I see no evidence in To End in Fire for this. The system was flooded with recon drones, so there was no possibility to load a ship while the fight was on. If they had wanted to do that, it would have been possible to do so before the arrival of the Grand Alliance; but then you could have used a regular passenger ship. What Darius would never want to do is to expose such a ship to a system full of people who were not aware that a spider drive existed.

The only use that I can imagine is to have several Ghost spy ships located far enough away, so that no one would would be aware of them; but where they could record the events of the battle to give feedback to Darius on how things worked out. For example, give a warning about the bow wave produced by Shuttlecock.