What next after To End in Fire

We have been told that the Alignment set up Galton as both an arsenal/manufacturing system and as yet another sacrificial decoy to misdirect anybody coming after them.
Why would they not maintain some level of stealthy overwatch to know both when it was discovered - well, when a fleet arrived to do something about it- and then how both Galton's defenses and the attackers tactics and weapons worked out/

It's not like they are truly expecting to get any short or medium term intelligence information for the GA beyond whatever is released for "news" purposes.
What kind of questions?
Did Galton self-destruct everything that was supposed to be eliminated (if not already destroyed in the attack)?
How did the various weapons/weapons systems work again the attacker?
How did the strategy (gamed out at Darius) fair agains the attacker and what lessons can be drawn from what did happen?
What survived in terms of the military and any nominal civilian installations either orbital, resource mining, or on the planet?
What were the attacker's losses and, in general, what caused them: weapons systems, particular tactics, etc
What were the attackers tactics and operations movements. What gaps or weaknesses can be learned from what happened?

We are told that none of the Spider Drive ships were stationed at or produced at Galton. Galton supposedly had none of the information or tech related to the Spider drives nor any of the ships (Ghosts, Sharks, Lenny Dets) and you might suppose that nobody- not even the top couple of officers in command there- know anything about the Spider drives or how to go about looking for those emissions. So why not slowly cycle a couple of Ghosts out to quietly observe the system and send in passive drones (Spider driven) on ballistic courses to maintain electronic and optical observations?

You are expecting Galton to eventually be found. Why would you not- since you have the absolute best stealth currently in the explored galaxy, keep and eye on it. You have experienced Ghost crews, you are going to need more of them later, so why not use/train them to do their jobs? At least one Ghost was slinking around inside the Manticore system and nobody was any wiser. Passive Alignment Recon Drones have got to be really stealthy and you will eventually get a ringside seat at whatever ends up taking Galton down. It's not even like the Alignment is expecting to get any of it's personal at Galton back, mostly they are expecting them to die heroically defending the system before their top commanders kill the vast majority of the survivors of the defense though self destruct systems on habitats and military installations. Heck, one tactic was designed to try and provoke the leaders of the attack to destroy much of the systems infrastructure and at least spaceborn population by reacting in fury to the massive attack launched after they had already surrendered.

Nice people, the Alignment. I'm sure any Ghost would have both orders and impeded system commands to self-destruct if detected and compromised. But in the meantime they could be send home valuable information to keep the Alignment informed of developments.

Just saying.

tlb wrote:Galton's stealth capabilities are not at the level of the Grand Alliance and the Malign did manage to get spy buoys into Manticore's home system to give targeting information to the missile pods during Oyster Bay. So suppose they sent their ghost-class spy ships to Galton ahead of the calculated invasion time and place them above and below Galton just outside the hyper limit. The GA will probably send surveillance drones in all directions to guard against stealth attacks, but their main attention will be toward the forts. The Ghosts will record as much as they can with their downward or upward view and have orders to transition out if they are individually in danger of being discovered.

Actually instead of being directly over or under Galton, they might be perpendicular to some point on the line extending out from Galton to the hyper limit.

The Darius MAlign did manage to get sensor drones inserted into the Manticore and Yeltsin systems in preparation for Oyster Bay, but those preceded the attack by a minute or two at most, and then it didn't matter if they were detected after the fact. The Solarian buoys that the Peeps were using before SVW were also rated for maybe a couple of months, I guess. We're talking here about buoys that would have to remain on-station for years, not months or minutes.

The chance that one of them will develop a fault and its stealth system fail increases with time and count. The chance of someone accidentally stumbling upon them is also non-negligible. The Inner Onion MAlign members in Galton can't be in the loop for every single asteroid prospect mission and there can't be a no-go zone around those stored in their databases, because that could then fall into the hands of the GA spooks.

It's also not just that their stealth may fail: they may instead crash and stop responding to commands. Even if you assume that a dead buoy is effectively also stealthed (it's not generating power or radiating heat), the fact that it won't receive and act on the self-destruct command means it could be found later by the GA and set the spooks wondering why it was there in the first place. A buoy sensor net would need maintenance and replacements periodically, all the while hiding from the Galton system traffic control.

Brigade XO wrote:We have been told that the Alignment set up Galton as both an arsenal/manufacturing system and as yet another sacrificial decoy to misdirect anybody coming after them.
Why would they not maintain some level of stealthy overwatch to know both when it was discovered - well, when a fleet arrived to do something about it- and then how both Galton's defenses and the attackers tactics and weapons worked out/

I've stated my reasons why I think it's risky. It's not that they wouldn't have wanted the information, it's instead that the risk-reward ratio was too unbalanced.

It's not like they are truly expecting to get any short or medium term intelligence information for the GA beyond whatever is released for "news" purposes.
What kind of questions?
Did Galton self-destruct everything that was supposed to be eliminated (if not already destroyed in the attack)?

Very important information, but is it actionable? Suppose that it did not self-destruct, what are you going to do?

How did the various weapons/weapons systems work again the attacker?

Important, but not required in the short-term. In the medium-term, they would expect to get that information from news and declassified reports (or partially declassified but stolen). They're arrogant enough to think that Darius won't be discovered in the meanwhile.

And besides, how well can you get that information from a sensor net 12 light-hours away?

How did the strategy (gamed out at Darius) fair agains the attacker and what lessons can be drawn from what did happen?

Not required in the short-term either. And maybe not in the long-term because Darius is very different from Galton, with different stealth, different capabilities, different installations to defend.

What survived in terms of the military and any nominal civilian installations either orbital, resource mining, or on the planet?

Irrelevant and non-actionable information.

What were the attacker's losses and, in general, what caused them: weapons systems, particular tactics, etc

Not actionable either, plus they'll get it in the medium-term. The attacker will also have learned and will adjust their tactics.

What were the attackers tactics and operations movements. What gaps or weaknesses can be learned from what happened?

I don't think this one could be gleaned from so far away either.

Note I am assuming the Darius MAlign can't or won't tap into the Galton sensor and defensive net while the attack is occurring, again due to the risk of detection. The inner system is flooded with GA recon drones and the hyperlimit is probably patrolled by ships acting as scouts and beaters (doesn't matter if they are, the MAN has to assume it is and they can't see them). So transmissions from the inner system to a remote point could be intercepted and lead the GF right to the spy ship or separate sensor net.

You are expecting Galton to eventually be found. Why would you not- since you have the absolute best stealth currently in the explored galaxy, keep and eye on it. You have experienced Ghost crews, you are going to need more of them later, so why not use/train them to do their jobs?

Time, resources, chance, risk, cost of opportunity.

At least one Ghost was slinking around inside the Manticore system and nobody was any wiser. Passive Alignment Recon Drones have got to be really stealthy and you will eventually get a ringside seat at whatever ends up taking Galton down.

There are two unproven assumptions there. First, that their RD stealth is really good: that may not be, because we know that the MAN ships use active stealth. Active means they use power for it, which larger ships have more of, and radiating away in select direction where you know there is no enemy to detect you. Second, that it's good enough to get a ringside seat: it worked against a non-alert Manticore and even then they were detected, just too late. Against a system flooded with GA recon drones, you don't want yours to accidentally get too close or on the wrong side of an enemy sensor. Do also note that for these purposes, Galton sensors are also the enemy.

Nice people, the Alignment. I'm sure any Ghost would have both orders and impeded system commands to self-destruct if detected and compromised. But in the meantime they could be send home valuable information to keep the Alignment informed of developments.

That outcome is no good either. Self-destructing is a major flare that someone was there hiding from you. The Ghost cannot be detected and if there is even a chance it would be, it mustn't be there in the first place.

Brigade XO wrote:We have been told that the Alignment set up Galton as both an arsenal/manufacturing system and as yet another sacrificial decoy to misdirect anybody coming after them.
Why would they not maintain some level of stealthy overwatch to know both when it was discovered - well, when a fleet arrived to do something about it- and then how both Galton's defenses and the attackers tactics and weapons worked out/

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I've stated my reasons why I think it's risky. It's not that they wouldn't have wanted the information, it's instead that the risk-reward ratio was too unbalanced.

I think that we have reached an impasse on this question and I choose to let it go (without changing my opinion) and wait for the next book. It is possible that time will provide an answer and equally likely that we may never know what RFC thinks about our disagreement.

[quote="tlb"] I think that we have reached an impasse on this question and I choose to let it go (without changing my opinion) and wait for the next book. It is possible that time will provide an answer and equally likely that we may never know what RFC thinks about our disagreement.

Ok, next book or two it is.

The Solarian-designed buoys that the Peeps used in SVW were at this point over 20 T-years old, and even back then the procedure was detected. Not the buoys themselves, but the destroyers that came to collect information or at least their actions. The GF would have had far more resources at disposal, a knowledge of enemy stealth ships, so they'd be watching the hyperlimit and far beyond it like hawks. Those Ghost-class ships would need to be inserted far out, at least a light-week.

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weekstonz wrote:The Solarian-designed buoys that the Peeps used in SVW were at this point over 20 T-years old, and even back then the procedure was detected. Not the buoys themselves, but the destroyers that came to collect information or at least their actions. The GF would have had far more resources at disposal, a knowledge of enemy stealth ships, so they'd be watching the hyperlimit and far beyond it like hawks. Those Ghost-class ships would need to be inserted far out, at least a light-week.

https://hdstreamz.uno
https://krnl.fun/

Besides, such tech only worked then in 3rd tier system without system grav arrays. Trying that in the Manticore system - in '24pd, you's have to drop off the drone 4+ light months out to avoid detection of the delivering ship- it would take decades for drone to gently swan through the system at non-detectible speeds and reach a point you can pick it up - at which point the data out collected would be several years out of date.

Theemile wrote:Besides, such tech only worked then in 3rd tier system without system grav arrays. Trying that in the Manticore system - in '24pd, you's have to drop off the drone 4+ light months out to avoid detection of the delivering ship- it would take decades for drone to gently swan through the system at non-detectible speeds and reach a point you can pick it up - at which point the data out collected would be several years out of date.

You wouldn't need that in the MBS. You'd just use a Q-ship.

weekstonz wrote:The Solarian-designed buoys that the Peeps used in SVW were at this point over 20 T-years old, and even back then the procedure was detected. Not the buoys themselves, but the destroyers that came to collect information or at least their actions. The GF would have had far more resources at disposal, a knowledge of enemy stealth ships, so they'd be watching the hyperlimit and far beyond it like hawks. Those Ghost-class ships would need to be inserted far out, at least a light-week.

https://hdstreamz.uno
https://krnl.fun/

No, the Ghosts come in on cargo vessels. No signature at all.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:Besides, such tech only worked then in 3rd tier system without system grav arrays. Trying that in the Manticore system - in '24pd, you's have to drop off the drone 4+ light months out to avoid detection of the delivering ship- it would take decades for drone to gently swan through the system at non-detectible speeds and reach a point you can pick it up - at which point the data out collected would be several years out of date.

You wouldn't need that in the MBS. You'd just use a Q-ship.

Why risk a q-ship - you just need to retrofit a standard freighter with tons of (hidden) passive sensor arrays.