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What next after To End in Fire

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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:28 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Honorverse missiles couldn't catch a ST ship. Being able to catch your target is more important than accuracy.


Makes you wonder why they don't just keep doing warp hops during battles, instead of taking on the shields.

Micro-Picard Manoeuvres


I don't think they can detect an incoming shot get into warp in time.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:27 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Makes you wonder why they don't just keep doing warp hops during battles, instead of taking on the shields.

Micro-Picard Manoeuvres


They write within the parameters of the author/studio/ director etc. Whatever cycle time is needed between micro-jumps, it would seem to be a lot less than an Honorverse ship's time. That and they can effectively do it almost anywhere in a system and perhaps end up weapons-to-target instead of needing to fire off-bore. Of course, other than photon torpedoes which have to leave their launchers and go "some" distance (sometimes a really tight arc) phaser emitters seem to be able to fire almost anywhere in 360 in the hemisphere from the "face" of the emitter (subject only to what part of their own ship might get in the way). While we don't usually see ST ships doing a lot of maneuvering in 3 dimensions (there is a lot to Spock's observation about two demential thinking), given the dynamics of warp and control it is entirely possible that you could micro-jump to a point relative to where your target is plowed to move but be 90º "overhead" and fire such that you are going to shoot through their dorsal surface. Now against an Honoverse ship with a Wedge, that would be a terrible idea, but if you went to only 45º of the target's side.....blow right though them and pop away. In fact, they did that really early in the ST Discover series with the help of that guy that was too linked in with the "water bear" creature. Your are your own swam of really amped up killer hornets. :)


TOG ST phasers had a "facing" and different emitter clusters were used for the different firing arcs - the STNG the emitters were phased arrays, and focus groups of emitters in any particular direction. "ST:E had swiveling emitters to allow just 2 guns to have 360 degree coverage. ST:D uses space magic and wishes, so who knows what they actually have.
(The ironic thing is the Discovery's phasers should have a set rate of fire - independent of where they are firing from, their rate of fire would be the same. Jumping only allowed the Discovery to dodge shots, but probably had the undesired effect of keeping their enemies alive longer as a specific area's shields would not fail as quickly - the enemy shields failed via a death of 1000 cuts.)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:18 am

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jzulauf530 wrote:The huge red flag to the GA should be the fact that they didn't run into the weapon systems they *know* the alignment had to have to execute Oyster Bay. No spider drive starships or missiles were used.

This seems like a huge blunder from the MA's point of view. Might as well scream, "nah, nah, missed me!"

Given that the RMN has constantly failed to deploy or operate as though those weapons exist, perhaps they didn't notice that they were not there because they don't know they exist?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:58 pm

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kzt wrote:Given that the RMN has constantly failed to deploy or operate as though those weapons exist, perhaps they didn't notice that they were not there because they don't know they exist?


That's the million credit question.

We know from when the Yawata Strike occurred, they had theorised those were a new technology of drives. We have not heard of anything contradicting that, no evidence that would lead them to a false trail, and disbelieving that initial conclusion.

And yet you're right the posturing during the Battle of Galton is not indicative of that being on Honor's mind. In fact, she should have discussed this with her commanders and strategists, and we didn't hear about it. I suppose it could have happened off-screen, and the positioning of the ships and the contingencies the fleet undertook were thus meant to mitigate those weapons, but if so it's a major gap in the book.

Which may be the point. RFC is reading these posts and going, "mwahahaha! have I got a surprise for you!"
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:19 pm

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kzt wrote:Given that the RMN has constantly failed to deploy or operate as though those weapons exist, perhaps they didn't notice that they were not there because they don't know they exist?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's the million credit question.

We know from when the Yawata Strike occurred, they had theorised those were a new technology of drives. We have not heard of anything contradicting that, no evidence that would lead them to a false trail, and disbelieving that initial conclusion.

It is not just theorizing, Herlander Simões told them that such a drive exists; although he was not working on it, so we do not know how much more he could have said. Also the Detweilers know that it was mentioned, because one of the books has that report getting back to them.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:23 pm

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tlb wrote:It is not just theorizing, Herlander Simões told them that such a drive exists; although he was not working on it, so we do not know how much more he could have said. Also the Detweilers know that it was mentioned, because one of the books has that report getting back to them.

Well, sure, it's a lot like on December 8th 1941 the USN decided that Japanese aircraft carriers are a myth.

But that's what the RMN is doing. WTF?

You tell me what is going on.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:15 pm

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tlb wrote:It is not just theorizing, Herlander Simões told them that such a drive exists; although he was not working on it, so we do not know how much more he could have said. Also the Detweilers know that it was mentioned, because one of the books has that report getting back to them.


The Detweilers don't count here. They got the report back and they know it to be true, but that's irrelevant from the point of view of the GA.

Simões did give a name to the drive they had theorised after the Strike, so that came to add weight to the theory. But they have to consider the possibility that Simões made it up, or that he was misled by the Alignment into believing such a thing existed.

kzt wrote:Well, sure, it's a lot like on December 8th 1941 the USN decided that Japanese aircraft carriers are a myth.

But that's what the RMN is doing. WTF?

You tell me what is going on.


I'd rather RFC did :)

What cannot be denied is that someone had very good stealth and managed to penetrate all the security in three different systems (Manticore-A, B, and Yeltsin's Star). Whether they were using a unknown principles on the drive or not is itself not the issue; it's possible that it's using wedges, but somehow the stealth is much, much better than the Alliance thought possible. Since they penetrated three systems' security, it can't have been a simple exploiting of a flaw, because it's unlikely all three would have the same. Unless it was an institutional flaw, but that still leads to revolutionary breakthrough.

Either way, now that they've got sensor readings from the Battle of Galton, and samples from the wreckage, can any of that explain the incursions during the Strike? Could the Hastas with graser missiles have penetrated that deeply? Could any of the ships captured after the battle or scanned during it have escaped detection after their alpha translation? Could those graser missiles have produced the observed beams that struck the four space stations?

And all of this is 2 years after the Strike, 2.5 after the forces would have left their home port, so one should expect to find something that is even better than what was used in the attack.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by tlb   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:41 pm

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tlb wrote:It is not just theorizing, Herlander Simões told them that such a drive exists; although he was not working on it, so we do not know how much more he could have said. Also the Detweilers know that it was mentioned, because one of the books has that report getting back to them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Detweilers don't count here. They got the report back and they know it to be true, but that's irrelevant from the point of view of the GA.

Simões did give a name to the drive they had theorised after the Strike, so that came to add weight to the theory. But they have to consider the possibility that Simões made it up, or that he was misled by the Alignment into believing such a thing existed.

The point of mentioning the Detweilers was that the report by Herlander got circulated enough to be picked up by the Malign spy network, which is not well developed in either Manticore or Haven. So the report was not simply buried and ignored.
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:24 pm

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tlb wrote:The point of mentioning the Detweilers was that the report by Herlander got circulated enough to be picked up by the Malign spy network, which is not well developed in either Manticore or Haven. So the report was not simply buried and ignored.


Actually, I think it's worse. You're right that it wasn't a secret at all, but it wasn't a report. It was PR. They Alliance was telling the newsies about this, far and wide, because they were also using this to make the SL back down from sending Filareta.

In particular, it wasn't a secret from the MBS, Beowulf, Grayson, and Haven system populations. So what are they going to tell those populations now? Have they found the spider drives?
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Re: What next after To End in Fire
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:45 pm

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It's clear to me that the RMN doesn't act like they even possibly exist.

Actions matter. If the leaders who always loudly talk about how something is a a critical issue are unwilling to actually inconvenience themselves by doing the things that this logically requires, the best working assumption is that they are lying to you about it being a critical issue. They are just trying to manipulate you by talking loudly about it.

The other alternative is they are idiots. And I'm not sure whether it's worse to be lead by liars or idiots.
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