Federation Plans

At the end of UH, Elizabeth proposes a "federated association" between manticore and haven.

Shared citizenship, shared junction rates, merged navies.

How do you think this will go over with the populace seeing as Manticore has been at war with haven until just recently?

Shared citizenship sounds like basically open borders.

Note: I have not read the latest books.

MC1560 wrote:At the end of UH, Elizabeth proposes a "federated association" between manticore and haven.

Shared citizenship, shared junction rates, merged navies.

How do you think this will go over with the populace seeing as Manticore has been at war with haven until just recently?

Shared citizenship sounds like basically open borders.

Note: I have not read the latest books.

You've lost nothing. The subject hasn't come up yet.

It's clear the relationship between the Havenite and Manticore governments and military is proceeding extremely well. The formation of the Grand Alliance and Grand Fleet is proof of that.

The question is whether the populations at large agree.

I don't know. There was clearly enough support for an alliance, especially once it became clear that a third party was threatening them both. And with the SL actually threatening, it proved a point.

A federated association is much more than that. I don't think Elizabeth thinks she'll get it in just a few years, though. It's probably something that will take decades. It might not even happen before the books end.

MC1560 wrote:At the end of UH, Elizabeth proposes a "federated association" between manticore and haven.

Shared citizenship, shared junction rates, merged navies.

How do you think this will go over with the populace seeing as Manticore has been at war with haven until just recently?

Shared citizenship sounds like basically open borders.

Note: I have not read the latest books.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You've lost nothing. The subject hasn't come up yet.

It's clear the relationship between the Havenite and Manticore governments and military is proceeding extremely well. The formation of the Grand Alliance and Grand Fleet is proof of that.

The question is whether the populations at large agree.

I don't know. There was clearly enough support for an alliance, especially once it became clear that a third party was threatening them both. And with the SL actually threatening, it proved a point.

A federated association is much more than that. I don't think Elizabeth thinks she'll get it in just a few years, though. It's probably something that will take decades. It might not even happen before the books end.

Would this work about the same way that the European Union would work if the NATO forces were wholly EU and under EU control?

tlb wrote:Would this work about the same way that the European Union would work if the NATO forces were wholly EU and under EU control?

I think it's more than what the EU is today, even ignoring the military aspect, especially with that shared citizenship part. The EU has none of that, though it might be a distinction without a difference because of the open borders and free transit of people, good and capital. Any citizen of an EU country is allowed to take up residence on any other, exchange their drivers' licences for a local one, and have the corresponding local education and health benefits.

There are lots of reasons why this (or some variation on the theme) is a great idea. There are also lots of reasons why this is going to be terribly hard. But past here it's all narrative.

kzt wrote:There are lots of reasons why this (or some variation on the theme) is a great idea. There are also lots of reasons why this is going to be terribly hard. But past here it's all narrative.

I don't think it is a good idea. Rather, permanent coupons issued on the junction isn't something Manticore should be just giving away. That is their lifeblood.

The problem comes when trying to figure out how much of a discount Haven will actually get. That could cause a problem if Haven expects as much of a deal as Beowulf receives. Remember, Manticore wants to revisit the agreement Beowulf is getting because it is a bit lopsided. Beowulf is making out like a bandit. It sounds crazy for Manticore to go down that road again. If you lower the prices for another government, their activity at the junction could increase so much that it affects your own. The much larger Haven would inject steroids into their merchant fleet.

Then there is the Andermani who may want to be issued coupons too. Then Torch. And Grayson will want a raise.

kzt wrote:There are lots of reasons why this (or some variation on the theme) is a great idea. There are also lots of reasons why this is going to be terribly hard. But past here it's all narrative.

cthia wrote:I don't think it is a good idea. Rather, permanent coupons issued on the junction isn't something Manticore should be just giving away. That is their lifeblood.

The problem comes when trying to figure out how much of a discount Haven will actually get. That could cause a problem if Haven expects as much of a deal as Beowulf receives. Remember, Manticore wants to revisit the agreement Beowulf is getting because it is a bit lopsided. Beowulf is making out like a bandit. It sounds crazy for Manticore to go down that road again. If you lower the prices for another government, their activity at the junction could increase so much that it affects your own. The much larger Haven would inject steroids into their merchant fleet.

Then there is the Andermani who may want to be issued coupons too. Then Torch. And Grayson will want a raise.

They are not simply talking about "coupons" at the junction; they are talking about an economic and political union (slightly more encompassing than the European Union) that will erase most all distinctions between Manticore and Haven. If this is implemented, ships from Haven would be treated exactly the same as ships from Manticore. Like the French and NATO, the Andermani might not want to submerge their individuality. As for Grayson and Torch, who knows?

PS: Where does it say: "Manticore wants to revisit the agreement Beowulf is getting because it is a bit lopsided. Beowulf is making out like a bandit."?

cthia wrote:I don't think it is a good idea. Rather, permanent coupons issued on the junction isn't something Manticore should be just giving away. That is their lifeblood.

In addition to what tlb said above, this is not a zero-sum game.

It might be if it were the for the Junction alone, considering the Junction is reaching saturation. Since it's a finite resource, a Havenite ship that transits is not a Solarian ship that didn't and paid the full fare.

But even then, it wouldn't totally be zero-sum.

First, the Havenite ships are far more likely to transit to and from Trevor's Star and the Andermani to Gregor, while SL-bound ships would transit via Hennesy and Beowulf. So they might not be taking out from near-saturation transits and they'd be adding to the overall income of the Junction.

Second, because it increases local trade in the region. This one is definitely not be a zero-sum game, as trade never is. Increased economic output from the Andermani and RoH would mean more demand from SEM goods and services too. And don't forget that the majority of the Manticore Merchant Marine had lost their markets with Case Lacoön, so until that picks up again, they have a ready market in the RoH.

Third, because Manticore imports are helping the region are stimulating the local economy, instead of sending Manticore Dollars far away into the SL core worlds.

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:There are lots of reasons why this (or some variation on the theme) is a great idea. There are also lots of reasons why this is going to be terribly hard. But past here it's all narrative.

cthia wrote:I don't think it is a good idea. Rather, permanent coupons issued on the junction isn't something Manticore should be just giving away. That is their lifeblood.

The problem comes when trying to figure out how much of a discount Haven will actually get. That could cause a problem if Haven expects as much of a deal as Beowulf receives. Remember, Manticore wants to revisit the agreement Beowulf is getting because it is a bit lopsided. Beowulf is making out like a bandit. It sounds crazy for Manticore to go down that road again. If you lower the prices for another government, their activity at the junction could increase so much that it affects your own. The much larger Haven would inject steroids into their merchant fleet.

Then there is the Andermani who may want to be issued coupons too. Then Torch. And Grayson will want a raise.

They are not simply talking about "coupons" at the junction; they are talking about an economic and political union (slightly more encompassing than the European Union) that will erase most all distinctions between Manticore and Haven. If this is implemented, ships from Haven would be treated exactly the same as ships from Manticore. Like the French and NATO, the Andermani might not want to submerge their individuality. As for Grayson and Torch, who knows?

PS: Where does it say: "Manticore wants to revisit the agreement Beowulf is getting because it is a bit lopsided. Beowulf is making out like a bandit."?

That came out of House of Steel. I discussed it in the opening post of the same thread... Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

I embellished it a bit upstream for dramatic effect, but it is true that the MBS was considering revisiting the agreement. Because it was unbalanced is my take on it. And, considering that, why would they want to enter into such a crazy agreement with a much bigger Haven? It seems to me like shooting yourself in the foot, financially.

If the proposal is talking about equality in junction use, that is terrible. It is as bad as giving your friends and family free food in your restaurant. It is a business. You don't mix business with pleasure! The part about coupons was my facetiousness acting up again. (I hate it when it does that.) But there was a bit of reality involved. Lower junction fees would be bad enough. But completely free? Heck, Beowulf doesn't get that and the MBS isn't too happy with their deal either. Again, according to HoS.

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cthia wrote:If the proposal is talking about equality in junction use, that is terrible. It is as bad as giving your friends and family free food in your restaurant. It is a business. You don't mix business with pleasure! The part about coupons was my facetiousness acting up again. (I hate it when it does that.) But there was a bit of reality involved. Lower junction fees would be bad enough. But completely free? Heck, Beowulf doesn't get that and Manticore isn't too happy with their deal either, again, according to HoS.

It's not. Not even Manticore-flagged merchant ships transit for free. They simply pay a reduced fee, which was extended to all allied governments in the Manticore Alliance during either wars with Haven and was likely extended to Haven too during the Grand Alliance.

So it's not like giving free food at the restaurant, but instead like giving them friends & family discount while they also give you similar discounts at their shoe shop and grocery store.