** ACTI Spoiler ** The B plot

Huh... what was that about? Why is there a detective story investigating a murder in the middle of the book?

I mean, don't get me wrong. Asimov's The Caves of Steel is after all a detective story, and so are the other two Robots books. So it goes in line with the best of Sci-Fi and it was pretty enjoyable.

But why was it there? Aside from the connection with Michael Winton, Elizabeth III's brother, who is the Duke of Winton-Serisburg in Honor's time, the story is wholly disconnected from the plot. It doesn't look like the perpetrator (not saying who in case you haven't reached the end) is connected to Axelrod or the wormhole.

David is pretty good at laying hints for future. But this is a third of the book and pretty disconnected as is.

I thought it was a bit off too. It doesn't even really work as some kind of character development for Chomps either.

Unless something comes along that connects it to something else I can't see it being relevant in any way to the book as a whole.

Joat42 wrote:I thought it was a bit off too. It doesn't even really work as some kind of character development for Chomps either.

Unless something comes along that connects it to something else I can't see it being relevant in any way to the book as a whole.

Possible romantic entanglement for Chomps?

Fox2! wrote:Possible romantic entanglement for Chomps?

Sure, but is that worth a third of the book?

Winterfall's possible romance with Crystal Pine was worth at most a few pages. The idea of enlarging the aristocracy from 50 peers is half a page. Travis wondering a few books ago that navigation in the Manticore system was unexplained was half a page. Lady Karina Alexander, 3rd Countess White Haven, contributing negatively to the defence of Manticore, was a page or two. Even Crystal Pine's discussion of why they shouldn't invite Axelrod was two pages.

Joat42 wrote:I thought it was a bit off too. It doesn't even really work as some kind of character development for Chomps either.

Unless something comes along that connects it to something else I can't see it being relevant in any way to the book as a whole.

At the moment all it seems to do is address a little side detail from Mission of Honor. When listing out Elizabeth's titles -- "Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette Winton, Grand Commander of the Order of King Roger, Grand Commander of the Order of Queen Elizabeth I, Grand Commander of the Order of the Golden Lion, Baroness of Crystal Pine, Baroness of White Sand, Countess of Tannerman, Countess of High Garnet, Grand Duchess of Basilisk, Princess Protector of the Realm, and, by God’s grace and the will of Parliament, Queen Elizabeth III of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and Empress Elizabeth I of the Star Empire of Manticore" -- those included Crystal Pine. (So I guess the Crown held on to the seized title that whole time)

But we haven't seen Olga Strait, Baroness Crystal Pine, prior to this. Nor had Crystal Pine showed up in previous Manticore Ascendant book or the Treecat books - so showed up from nowhere and basically gone after 1 book.

But I suspect there will be a payoff around who was "[t]he fifty-fourth investor in the original corporation". I wonder if it's a peerage well known to us; like White Haven.


Then we're given a heads up that the next book will likely have a political fight over increasing the size of the House of Lords. “There’s been some occasional talk over the years about modifying the current cap on House of Lords membership, and I’m guessing this may bump that discussion up to the front burner. So that could be interesting.” HoS says "When the Constitution was adopted, converting shareholders into peers of the realm, the membership of the House of Lords was fixed at fifty, with seats granted based on the order in which the original colonists had invested in the expedition."

This implies that two peerages had been wiped out (possible during the Plague Years), or seized, prior to the death of Duke Serisburg and all his heirs. (Thus making Baroness Crystal Pine the 53rd investor, and with her fall, bringing us to the 54th)

But House of Steel says "Membership of the Lords as of 1921 PD is 587, and the total membership may be increased by a maximum of only ten percent between general elections of the House of Commons, no newly created peer may assume his or her seat until after the first general election following his elevation, and grants of peerages may be confirmed only by the House of Commons." So it seems significant increase and reform of the procedure has occurred during the intervening centuries (though possibly not all in one go)

Still that seems we could have gotten that setup without devoting so much of the book to a murder mystery plot.


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Side note: This got me to check out the Queen's other three lesser titles:
* Baroness of White Sand -- in ACtD we meet "Lieutenant Grace Burns, [...], daughter of Baron White Sand". And in ACtV we're told someone is from White Sand. (So this title hasn't come into the Crown's hands yet)

* Countess of Tannerman -- we've only heard of Sphinx's Tannerman Ocean [SVW, FoD, FiE, MoF, MtH, SoV, ABF]

* Countess of High Garnet -- no mentions anywhere

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Huh... what was that about? Why is there a detective story investigating a murder in the middle of the book?

I mean, don't get me wrong. Asimov's The Caves of Steel is after all a detective story, and so are the other two Robots books. So it goes in line with the best of Sci-Fi and it was pretty enjoyable.

But why was it there? Aside from the connection with Michael Winton, Elizabeth III's brother, who is the Duke of Winton-Serisburg in Honor's time, the story is wholly disconnected from the plot. It doesn't look like the perpetrator (not saying who in case you haven't reached the end) is connected to Axelrod or the wormhole.

David is pretty good at laying hints for future. But this is a third of the book and pretty disconnected as is.

Perhaps Masterson was a deep cover Axelrod operative with the long range goal of setting up a possible insurgency against the Free Duchy of Barca occupation (just in case the Duke got ambitious) - Axelrod would support that insurgency for "considerations" and thus end up with control of the Junction anyway. Lynn had no reason to know about this Plan B and thus it never came up in the text of the novels.

Jonathan_S wrote:At the moment all it seems to do is address a little side detail from Mission of Honor. When listing out Elizabeth's titles -- "Elizabeth Adrienne Samantha Annette Winton, Grand Commander of the Order of King Roger, Grand Commander of the Order of Queen Elizabeth I, Grand Commander of the Order of the Golden Lion, Baroness of Crystal Pine, Baroness of White Sand, Countess of Tannerman, Countess of High Garnet, Grand Duchess of Basilisk, Princess Protector of the Realm, and, by God’s grace and the will of Parliament, Queen Elizabeth III of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, and Empress Elizabeth I of the Star Empire of Manticore" -- those included Crystal Pine. (So I guess the Crown held on to the seized title that whole time)

But we haven't seen Olga Strait, Baroness Crystal Pine, prior to this. Nor had Crystal Pine showed up in previous Manticore Ascendant book or the Treecat books - so showed up from nowhere and basically gone after 1 book.

She was introduced as a newly-elevated peer, the 53rd family to have contributed to the Manticore Colony Trust, Ltd. back on Earth before Jason's lanch. The Constitution, at this time, requires exactly 50 peers, so if one of the titles becomes vacant due to the death of the current holder and all eligible heirs, as was the case with Duke Serisburg, then the title and lands revert to the Crown and another person is elevated to peer. I guess that also happens when the title is withdrawn due to fraud

Aside from Grand Duchess of Basilisk and the Royal and Imperial titles, it's likely the other titles Elizabeth III had are similar circumstances. It's possible the Crown can acquire some by marriage, in case the direct heir dies without issue and the Crown passes to a sibling of the monarch who has other titles. That could happen both by being awarded such titles (like Duke of Winton-Serisburg) or by having married nobility before becoming the monarch, as was the case with Elizabeth II. But do note that Elizabeth III does not hold the title of Baroness of New Madrid, which was Elizabeth II's husband's title, though this tells us nothing: it could have been split from the Crown again, or the title may have passed to a sibling of Carmichael's.

But we don't know for sure because we don't know if the direct Winton line is actually unbroken after Elizabeth II. We do know that Adrienne was direct heir of Roger II and we know the line was unbroken after Samantha II, but we don't know for sure the other ones are children of the reigning monarch at the time. In particular, since William I was assassinated, we don't know if William II was his child, his brother, or a cousin. Given that William II reigned for 51 T-years, it's likely he ascended very young and therefore likely was a child of William I.

The title of Grand Duchess of Basilisk we do: it was created by her father on her first birthday, to ensure the protectorate of Basilisk stood. It was mentioned in House of Steel.

Then we're given a heads up that the next book will likely have a political fight over increasing the size of the House of Lords. “There’s been some occasional talk over the years about modifying the current cap on House of Lords membership, and I’m guessing this may bump that discussion up to the front burner. So that could be interesting.” HoS says "When the Constitution was adopted, converting shareholders into peers of the realm, the membership of the House of Lords was fixed at fifty, with seats granted based on the order in which the original colonists had invested in the expedition."

Right. We know there are far more during Honor's time. And Elizabeth was creating new peerages whenever she wanted (though probably with Parliament's consent).

This implies that two peerages had been wiped out (possible during the Plague Years), or seized, prior to the death of Duke Serisburg and all his heirs. (Thus making Baroness Crystal Pine the 53rd investor, and with her fall, bringing us to the 54th)

Yes and no. Yes, it's very likely two of the original families had been wiped during the Plague Years, but that doesn't mean they were peerages. Remember the Monarchy and the aristocracy were created after the Plague Years, because of the need for new immigration. So those two families may have never had a peerage.

BTW, now, in hindsight, the use of titles that had reverted to the Crown, both Crystal Pine and Serisburg, were a serious hint to what was going to happen.

Crystal Pine asked to stay at the end of that meeting about the "resonance" problem and specifically recommended against inviting Axelrod. Exactly why she was maneuvering around Serisburg wasn't clear to me though it is possible she is an -if not an Axelrod agent- working for someone who is in conjunction with furthering the Axelrod takeover.
We are sort of back at the three or four layers removed type of operations we have come to expect of the Alignment. Keep in mind that the woman that Lynn's was swapped with so he could handle the Andermann part of the venture is still out there. Although that didn't nip a planet away from the Andermanni it still has pulled attention out in that direction. But what is going to come at Manticore next other than some home-grown revolt that "someone" will have to swoop in and help put down?

Brigade XO wrote:Crystal Pine asked to stay at the end of that meeting about the "resonance" problem and specifically recommended against inviting Axelrod. Exactly why she was maneuvering around Serisburg wasn't clear to me though it is possible she is an -if not an Axelrod agent- working for someone who is in conjunction with furthering the Axelrod takeover.

She isn't an agent. Her family is from Earth and she's probably the great-granddaughter in a direct line of that investor, possibly granddaughter of an Earth-born person. She definitely wasn't inserted. Moreover, we know that Duke Serisburg bought his Solarian car 10 years prior, more or less, which would have put this in about 1535. Axelrod only found out about the Junction after the Secour Conference, so that was 1533. The timeline is too short.

Moreover, excluding Axelrod would be counter to their interests. As I said above, having someone in the conference who can influence the discussions away from the conclusion there is a Junction there would be useful. It would be more useful to make sure it never happened, but that might not be possible at all.

Therefore, Crystal Pine would definitely not know anything about Axelrod, much less about the motivation. If she had known that, in the position she was in, she could easily switch sides and benefit monstrously.

This Masterson guy is equally improbable. She may have hired someone who has an ulterior motive and divided loyalties, but the original plot wouldn't have been Axelrod. It's not impossible, just very tight. The distance from Beowulf to Manticore is at least 460 light-years. At 736c in the Gamma band, such a trip would be 7.5 months long. Axelrod may have sent a military-grade ship to insert an operative, but the ship wouldn't go straight to Manticore, so I'd say 7.5 months is a good time. The operative could have researched all available data on the Manticore Monarchy before leaving and they'd know who the next 1 or 2 possible elevations would be.

Would be interesting to know if there was another death and title becoming vacant in those 10 years before Serisburg.

We are sort of back at the three or four layers removed type of operations we have come to expect of the Alignment. Keep in mind that the woman that Lynn's was swapped with so he could handle the Andermann part of the venture is still out there. Although that didn't nip a planet away from the Andermanni it still has pulled attention out in that direction. But what is going to come at Manticore next other than some home-grown revolt that "someone" will have to swoop in and help put down?

Kinda. That operation was a bust. Axelrod didn't want to launch the distraction then because there was nothing to distract from. It's now been resolved without a Civil War, allowing the Andermani to regain their focus on what matters to them.

Like for the mercenary invasion of Manticore, that card has been used. Doing the same again is difficult. I mean, the Andermani have to honour any insurrection and they do have 3 more systems at least (the ABC), but the populations of those planets would be pre-warned about the results in Tomlinson.

And Axelrod doesn't know that the Andermani now know the invasion of Manticore, the attack in Casca and in Danak, and the insurrection in Tomlinson are linked. Given that the prison breach in Haven is too, the three powers in the Sector know there's someone after them.

And Manticore thinks they know why.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:She was introduced as a newly-elevated peer, the 53rd family to have contributed to the Manticore Colony Trust, Ltd. back on Earth before Jason's lanch. The Constitution, at this time, requires exactly 50 peers, so if one of the titles becomes vacant due to the death of the current holder and all eligible heirs, as was the case with Duke Serisburg, then the title and lands revert to the Crown and another person is elevated to peer. I guess that also happens when the title is withdrawn due to fraud

I believe she was introduced as newly a member of the 50 person House of Lords. But there were more than 50 peerages even back then; and so she'd have already been a peer.

House of Steel wrote:When the Constitution was adopted, converting shareholders into peers of the realm, the membership of the House of Lords was fixed at fifty, with seats granted based on the order in which the original colonists had invested in the expedition. That is, a “baron” who had been among the very early investors (or whose parent or grandparent had been) would be seated in the Lords in preference to a “duke” whose investment had come later. This rule of seniority within the Lords continues to this day, which helps to explain the influence of Michael Janvier, who was “merely” Baron of High Ridge but whose direct ancestor had been only the sixth individual to invest in the colony expedition. In the years since the founding, the number of seats in both the Lords and the Commons have been adjusted several times to reflect the SKM’s growing population base, but even today, not all peers hold seats in the House of Lords, by any means.

And that's why I assume there was pressure to increase the size of Lords -- all those later investors/peers who had titles and holdings (some whom would have been larger investors that many of the first 50), but no seat and want in on the action.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yes and no. Yes, it's very likely two of the original families had been wiped during the Plague Years, but that doesn't mean they were peerages. Remember the Monarchy and the aristocracy were created after the Plague Years, because of the need for new immigration. So those two families may have never had a peerage.

Good point. An investing family could have died out before the establishment of the Constitution which established investors as peers of the realm. (And RFC may not have decided exactly when/why those two families weren't now in the House of Lords)
Though the phrasing is interesting:

The death of an entire Peerage was a situation that none of the Founders had ever wanted to happen, but in the middle of the wholesale death that was the Plague Years they’d had the foresight to make sure it was addressed in the Constitution.

That hints that when that part of the Constitution was written none of the first 50 investor families had yet died out, and possibly no investor family had been. If one had already died out I think it would have been phrased differently; as it then wouldn't be "foresight" so much as applying hindsight to the new situation.

However, since it doesn't state outright that all 50 still existed at that time RFC isn't nailed down and still has room to tell us that one (or two) did die out prior to the Constitution without contradicting himself.