Pawn - Q7 ... Checkmate?

cthia wrote:Good points. I may have missed a memo that Manpower agents were generally fitted with suicide protocols and nanite programming.

At any rate, I will always consider anyone associated with Manpower to be less competent than MA agents by the very fact that the MA thought of the entire lot of them as a bunch of bumbling idiots.

That's true, but we don't know if those Manpower agents weren't actually MAlign infiltrators. We know Manpower is thoroughly infiltrated.

Some of them are clearly bumbling idiots, like the ones that kidnapped Helen Zilwicki on Earth, because they had no plan after the kidnapping. The ones that kidnapped Allison might have been too.

Here's the thing: I don't see proper MAlign agents kidnapping Queen Elizabeth in the first place. So they've been looking to me like the same type of bumbling idiots that performed the other two kidnappings.

tlb wrote:Whereas anyone thinking that kidnapping a member of the family of a Planetary Director was a good idea has to be somewhat fanatical.

The stupidity of criminals is not to be underestimated.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote: I may have missed a memo that Manpower agents were generally fitted with suicide protocols and nanite programming.

I specifically did not not say that; I thought that I was agreeing with you that they would NOT have the nanite suicide protocol, because they were from Manpower Inc.

I realized that you were agreeing with me. But I just wasn't sure of my own facts, and in case I was wrong I didn't want to take you down with me. I am the captain of that ship, and only the captain should go down with a sinking vessel.

tlb wrote:Yes, Harahap was more capable; but he was anything but fanatical, instead his motivations were always practical. Whereas anyone thinking that kidnapping a member of the family of a Planetary Director was a good idea has to be somewhat fanatical.

Agreed, he wasn't fanatical, nor was he a part of the Alignment, and he definitely was not inside the Onion. But remember, he was slated to get the suicide protocols too, to help bridge the gap in his allegiance. Or lack thereof.

At any rate, for a mission like kidnapping the Queen, the MA would use their best. Someone inside the Onion. Onion heads are fanatical. Fanaticism has a certain distinction of never being able to be called stupid. Serving a higher power trumps stupidity. It is all for the common good.

Do you think people who strap bombs to themselves as a means to an end think of themselves as stupid? I would rather attempt to kidnap the Queen than strap a bomb to myself to kill someone. I may or may not be successful in kidnapping the Queen and I just might die. But strapping a bomb to myself will definitely result in my death whether I am successful or not. Especially if I am successful. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Were kamikaze pilots stupid? Were they fanatics? They certainly were oftentimes referred to as kamikraze. Everything in the MA toolbox is simply a means to an end.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Good points. I may have missed a memo that Manpower agents were generally fitted with suicide protocols and nanite programming.

At any rate, I will always consider anyone associated with Manpower to be less competent than MA agents by the very fact that the MA thought of the entire lot of them as a bunch of bumbling idiots.

That's true, but we don't know if those Manpower agents weren't actually MAlign infiltrators. We know Manpower is thoroughly infiltrated.

Some of them are clearly bumbling idiots, like the ones that kidnapped Helen Zilwicki on Earth, because they had no plan after the kidnapping. The ones that kidnapped Allison might have been too.

Here's the thing: I don't see proper MAlign agents kidnapping Queen Elizabeth in the first place. So they've been looking to me like the same type of bumbling idiots that performed the other two kidnappings.

You keep saying that, and it floors me. After everything you have read about the MA, you somehow see a line that they won't cross. I can't see a darn line.

Will they kill babies wholesale to achieve their goals? ✓

Will they kill their own mother? ✓

Will they kill thousands or millions simply to disguise a road trip? ✓

Will they instigate a war to get millions of innocent spacers killed? ✓

Will they kill their own? Will they cull entire lines? Will they risk an EE violation? ✓✓✓

I can not imagine there could actually be a line they aren't willing to cross, if it is something that they feel will slot a piece of the puzzle for them. Kidnapping a Queen? Is that all? Of all the possibilities that might cause them to pause, you see that as the line?

You can not generate a proper criminal profile on a subject if you know them to be malignant but yet you leave that most important fact out of the equation.

Too be clear, I was only talking about the kidnapping of Allison Chou in the short story "Beauty and the Beast"; not about a hypothetical attempt on the Queen.

Note that in the short story, the kidnappers claimed that they only wanted to exchange Allison for a roster of BSC agents in various places - so a ransom of sorts.

cthia wrote:You keep saying that, and it floors me. After everything you have read about the MA, you somehow see a line that they won't cross. I can't see a darn line.

I'm not saying they couldn't move themselves to do it or that it's a line they wouldn't cross.

I'm saying I don't see why they would do it because I fail to see what they gain from it. I'm not going to rehash the entire argument here; I'm just saying I have not been convinced by any of them, which means the kidnapping lacks a proper, rational motivation to me.

The closest I can come is that it was an assassination squad in a decapitation strike that unexpectedly succeeded in turning it into a kidnapping.

Without a proper motivation, that leaves bumbling but successful idiots.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:You keep saying that, and it floors me. After everything you have read about the MA, you somehow see a line that they won't cross. I can't see a darn line.

I'm not saying they couldn't move themselves to do it or that it's a line they wouldn't cross.

I'm saying I don't see why they would do it because I fail to see what they gain from it. I'm not going to rehash the entire argument here; I'm just saying I have not been convinced by any of them, which means the kidnapping lacks a proper, rational motivation to me.

The closest I can come is that it was an assassination squad in a decapitation strike that unexpectedly succeeded in turning it into a kidnapping.

Without a proper motivation, that leaves bumbling but successful idiots.

I penned it as the exact opposite upstream. It was a kidnapping with a contingency plan to kill. Take her alive if you can, kill her if you can't. She is more valuable to the MA alive. Again, Alphas are smarter than the average bear. They see the real value in such a highly valued commodity as Beth. She is unarguably the most valuable person in the Honorverse. Why waste such a valuable commodity.

But you still continue to treat them as average. They are not.

Politics does not affect the MA in any way. 'Ouch!' Stop throwing things. LOL

The Peeps assassinated King Roger as a political move. Masada attempted to assassinate Beth as a political move. Grayson would have looked awfully bad had Beth died in their care. The alliance may have ended. The Alignment attempted to assassinate Queen Berry on principle. Although it could have been to eliminate a champion and refuge for slaves which could be argued as a political slant. But I don't think it had much at all to do with politics. Their other assassinations were to eliminate loose ends.

The MA is simply a horse of a different color altogether. They aren't even a part of civilization much less humanity. So, galactic wide politics cannot work for them. It can only work against them. Like that damn Beowulf Code. They aren't a part of any Conventions or are signatories on anything in the "civilized" Galaxy. I am not even sure the edict would legally cover what the entire Galaxy feels are no more than inbred, overbred terrorists. Absolutely everyone in the Galaxy who matters are already out to get them. So why play the politics game other than to throw a monkey wrench in everyone else's. And if you can't find a monkey when you need one. Use a gorilla. LOL

At any rate, as far as the MA is concerned, it doesn't matter who sits on the throne in the MBS, so they can afford to barter her instead of killing her. Sell her instead. The MA has a tendency to turn women into prostitutes. Or rather, their flunkies do.

But why kill the MVP in the Honorverse if you can capture her and then pimp her out to help right the train that went off the rails by buying yourself some time forcing a treaty.

Again, this is no different than something all governments do. They barter high profile prisoners. As far as high profile prisoners, Beth is gold-pressed latinum to the MA. They can no more waste latinum than a Ferengi.

Alphas work smart not hard.

A smart but malignant entity approaches everything from the other end, not just their tech.

To the average mind, "War is simply a continuation of politics by other means."

To the malignant mind, "Diplomacy is, war by any means."

On the contrary, I think that only a bumbling idiot like Ransom would choose to use such a valuable captured commodity as roadkill.

Alphas work smart, not hard. Does that really always hold true? No doubt but what the alphas are among the most highly intelligent people in the galaxy. But intelligence doesn't necessarily always equal smart. Intelligence is only one vector of smart and not always the most important one. Alphas are smart in the sense of considering themselves the smartest person in the room which, of course, is dumb. And alphas have been doing all sorts of dumb things, like Oyster Bay, Beowulf, etc. Not all alphas are like that, of course. Honor may be the product of a misplaced alpha line. O'Hanrahan doesn't seem to be either. But the Detweilers and their inner circle? Are they "smart"? I don't think so. The bubble they live in is too small. They look down on ordinary people with the sort of bias which comes from believing themselves superior. That means they constantly under estimate their opponents, leading to the mistakes we have seen throughout the story. What is missing? Real world experience that leads to wisdom...And without that there there is no way to "work smart."

Just a musing...

Don

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n7axw wrote:Alphas work smart, not hard. Does that really always hold true? No doubt but what the alphas are among the most highly intelligent people in the galaxy. But intelligence doesn't necessarily always equal smart. Intelligence is only one vector of smart and not always the most important one. Alphas are smart in the sense of considering themselves the smartest person in the room which, of course, is dumb. And alphas have been doing all sorts of dumb things, like Oyster Bay, Beowulf, etc. Not all alphas are like that, of course. Honor may be the product of a misplaced alpha line. O'Hanrahan doesn't seem to be either. But the Detweilers and their inner circle? Are they "smart"? I don't think so. The bubble they live in is too small. They look down on ordinary people with the sort of bias which comes from believing themselves superior. That means they constantly under estimate their opponents, leading to the mistakes we have seen throughout the story. What is missing? Real world experience that leads to wisdom...And without that there there is no way to "work smart."

Just a musing...

Don

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Your entire post is certainly a legitimate argument that cannot be dismissed. But if I may suggest that their mistakes have been the result of their emotions. OMG, they have some humanity left in them after all. And when you prick them they bleed.

But many of their bad decisions have been the result of a lack of control of their emotions. Alphas and genies tend to have a few issues with controlling their tempers and emotions. They are bound to make mistakes in short term projects. But there is no denying their genius.

So, yes, I do believe they work smart not hard. Mostly. But an errant gene sequence can loose some screws. They haven't genengineered all of the humanity out of themselves yet.

But yes, I agree, they can occasionally fall prey to their emotions, delusions of grandeur, and the pitfalls of "inbreeding."

They probably are the smartest people in the room, but not necessarily the wisest.

cthia wrote:I penned it as the exact opposite upstream. It was a kidnapping with a contingency plan to kill. Take her alive if you can, kill her if you can't.

Understood and agreed. Clearly a decapitation strike has some value, so if they have a motive for a kidnapping and manage to get close enough, a valid fallback plan would be indeed to assassinate her.

The problem I have is that "if."

She is more valuable to the MA alive. Again, Alphas are smarter than the average bear. They see the real value in such a highly valued commodity as Beth. She is unarguably the most valuable person in the Honorverse. Why waste such a valuable commodity.

But you still continue to treat them as average. They are not.

No, I don't. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am ascribing to them intelligence and the ability to think rationally on the pros and cons of kidnapping the Empress. And in my conclusion, the cons outweigh the pros by an incredibly large margin.

I'm not going to rehash the discussion, but I will say what that conclusion was. Kidnapping can have three outcomes: hostage is rescued, hostage is freed by captors or hostage dies by the hands of the captors. The first has no upside for the captors; the third is a consolation prize and definitely not the main objective, because an assassination is easier than a kidnapping. That left the negotiation of what each side gave up, and the way I understood it, the outcome was that neither side would trust the other to keep their word, which meant that it was unenforceable anyway.

The Alignment attempted to assassinate Queen Berry on principle. Although it could have been to eliminate a champion and refuge for slaves which could be argued as a political slant. But I don't think it had much at all to do with politics. Their other assassinations were to eliminate loose ends.

It wasn't on principle. That was a decapitation strike on the Kingdom of Torch, which was a risk on two factors: it hosted the Audubon Ballroom fighters and gave them legitimacy with a de jure military force, and it was occupying the Congo System, which we know to be the terminus of a warp bridge that connects to The Twins, which connects to Felix. And Operation Rat Poison wasn't targetting Queen Berry alone: the entire leadership of Torch was the target.

But why kill the MVP in the Honorverse if you can capture her and then pimp her out to help right the train that went off the rails by buying yourself some time forcing a treaty.

Replied above: both parties were sure the other side was going to break said treaty, with little downside when doing so. Therefore, the value of that treaty is the same as the value of a blank sheet of paper. I'm not going to rehash the arguments that led to this conclusion, I'm stating that was the conclusion and you've failed to convince me otherwise. And therefore, since the value of the operation is negligible, zero, or even negative, it would make no sense to launch it in the first place.

On the contrary, I think that only a bumbling idiot like Ransom would choose to use such a valuable captured commodity as roadkill.

That is certainly true, because it incensed the population in two systems. It would have been better to keep her alive but off the board, as a demoralising effect. So the MAlign kidnapping Beth but not offering to return her until their work was done elsewhere could have some value. I'd need to think about it.