Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ThinksMarkedly and 5 guests

Attacking Darius:

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:55 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13582
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

munroburton wrote:
Relax wrote:Bolded is what I have ALWAYS had a gargantuan problem with. What could possibly motivate them? They have ZERO reason to build. They know virtually nothing about any other star system and even if they were indoctrinated, there is no interaction with any other star system. Unless... :twisted: , the MALIGN purposefully creates entirely fabricated "news", battles, deaths, etc from outside their star system for why they need to build these giant ship yards.

Of course RFC has also said that the MALIGN living there are not segregated from the slaves, so real information about the outside will filter through, unless we also must postulate that the MALIGN living in Darius know nothing either :? :?:


The paragraph immediately preceding the two I quoted from MoH says that there has been a lot of lying to Darius' population(star lines included). Three or four generations of workers all know they've been building the infrastructure to support a massive navy as well as build that navy, but they think it's for some defensive purpose.

Who or what they were supposed to be defending against isn't clarified. As you suggest, they might have fabricated an outside universe where, instead of passing the Eridani Edict, other humans are busy carrying out the Dark Forest theory.

It all reminds me of the lies Germany told to its own people and the territories it conquered. Which led to the propaganda air bombings of German occupied territories with leaflets and pamphlets.

Perhaps the worst thing you can do to Darius is dump leaflets and mini video players onto the planet depicting life in the galaxy at large. It would probably do more damage than KEWS. It will probably spark many uprisings of Medusan proportions.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:06 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2749
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
I believe that the Silver Bullets were delivered to Warner, where they were added to the cargo of the freighter carrying the Beowulf shipments. As to what they picked up at that extra stop, it could had been the bombs that took out the Beowulf orbital habitats.


No, the shipment to Beowulf had been delayed/held (sounded like it was organized much earlier by the Alighment) at Warne but the Silver Bullet systems were manufactured at Darius. The SBA had to be shipped from Darius but the Alignment controlled freighter was given a specific location to stop- on the way to Beowulf and way out from anywhere- to receive the transfer from what seems to have been a streak drive ship to do the transfer.

If you are going t cover your tracks, this lets you set up the rendezvous out in the Dark and have no record in the manifests of anything on the "normal" freighter of anything being shipped but not disclosed at Beowulf. No cargo that vanishes off the manifests between Warner and Beowulf.
There was nothing but a possible slightly too long transit for that ship from Warner to Beowulf show up in an investigation of ships passing through Beowulf to raise a question. Even if someone later looked at everything that passed through the system a few weeks before the attack, the actual time-in-transit is a function of what the ship is capable of but will vary by all sorts of little things. Freighters don't usually push their engines or other capabilities so even if it was a day beyond an "average" transit, who was looking. Besides, everything is in motion and where Beowulf and Werner are in relation to each other (and travel vector & speed in the galaxy), it's probably going to vary even from the same ship over multiple runs between the two points. They left Warner with X disclosed large and arrived at Beowulf with X disclosed cargo and, after dropping what was scheduled and picking up new freight, it went on it's way.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:14 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13582
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Brigade XO wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
I believe that the Silver Bullets were delivered to Warner, where they were added to the cargo of the freighter carrying the Beowulf shipments. As to what they picked up at that extra stop, it could had been the bombs that took out the Beowulf orbital habitats.


No, the shipment to Beowulf had been delayed/held (sounded like it was organized much earlier by the Alighment) at Warne but the Silver Bullet systems were manufactured at Darius. The SBA had to be shipped from Darius but the Alignment controlled freighter was given a specific location to stop- on the way to Beowulf and way out from anywhere- to receive the transfer from what seems to have been a streak drive ship to do the transfer.

If you are going t cover your tracks, this lets you set up the rendezvous out in the Dark and have no record in the manifests of anything on the "normal" freighter of anything being shipped but not disclosed at Beowulf. No cargo that vanishes off the manifests between Warner and Beowulf.
There was nothing but a possible slightly too long transit for that ship from Warner to Beowulf show up in an investigation of ships passing through Beowulf to raise a question. Even if someone later looked at everything that passed through the system a few weeks before the attack, the actual time-in-transit is a function of what the ship is capable of but will vary by all sorts of little things. Freighters don't usually push their engines or other capabilities so even if it was a day beyond an "average" transit, who was looking. Besides, everything is in motion and where Beowulf and Werner are in relation to each other (and travel vector & speed in the galaxy), it's probably going to vary even from the same ship over multiple runs between the two points. They left Warner with X disclosed large and arrived at Beowulf with X disclosed cargo and, after dropping what was scheduled and picking up new freight, it went on it's way.

I questioned whether or not the freighter had any idea what was in its cargo hold. Whether they did or not, it seems the MA may have taken a chance that some of the SBs could have been sold. Truck drivers often have a side business of their own, dropping off Pepsi from a Pepsi truck to neighbors and friends as well as helping themselves. A few of those SBs could be somewhere in another system. It is possible the Captain knew, but would all of the crew know? At any rate, there could have been some illegal activities going on with the crew of the freighter. Remember Hauptman's own carrier dealing in illegal pelts on the side? I would imagine the practice is widespread in the HV, since empty space is the safest place to deal in the dark with no nosey eyes to tell on you. But it is difficult to think the ultra paranoid Alignment would take a chance on its secrets aboard just any old freighter without "contingencies" in place. In fact, that freighter may have self-destructed if it hadn't correctly followed procedure. It may have self-destructed s'where off in empty space after the delivery anyway, to sew up any loose ends.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:27 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Brigade XO wrote:Besides, everything is in motion and where Beowulf and Werner are in relation to each other (and travel vector & speed in the galaxy), it's probably going to vary even from the same ship over multiple runs between the two points.


Yes, it's going to vary but usually not from the galactic speed. Unless one of those systems happens to be on a runaway star, the relative velocity between the two systems is going to be negligible. Besides, that would be a constant and predictable progression.

It's actually going to vary far more by the simple revolution of the planet around the star (a.k.a. "year"). The freighters may make sloppy calculations and end up on the wrong side of the hyperlimit. If they're already planning on emerging 4 light-minutes away, such sloppy calculation can easily add 4 more light-minutes (more is possible, but it starts getting silly and someone may ask you to retake your piloting exams).
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:31 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:I questioned whether or not the freighter had any idea what was in its cargo hold. Whether they did or not, it seems the MA may have taken a chance that some of the SBs could have been sold. Truck drivers often have a side business of their own, dropping off Pepsi from a Pepsi truck to neighbors and friends as well as helping themselves. A few of those SBs could be somewhere in another system. It is possible the Captain knew, but would all of the crew know? At any rate, there could have been some illegal activities going on with the crew of the freighter. Remember Hauptman's own carrier dealing in illegal pelts on the side? I would imagine the practice is widespread in the HV, since empty space is the safest place to deal in the dark with no nosey eyes to tell on you. But it is difficult to think the ultra paranoid Alignment would take a chance on its secrets aboard just any old freighter without "contingencies" in place. In fact, that freighter may have self-destructed if it hadn't correctly followed procedure. It may have self-destructed s'where off in empty space after the delivery anyway, to sew up any loose ends.


Which is why this was probably an MAN ship, not a simple MAlign-owned freighter. They knew they had to make a rendezvous in the dark to pick something up and then drop it off in the middle of nowhere on Beowulf. It doesn't even matter if they knew what they were carrying; the simple fact is that they knew it was nefarious business and someone opportunistic could be trying to sell information.

This goes back to the question a dozen pages ago or so of how long the location of Darius can be kept a secret. There are already too many ships going in and out of it.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by kzt   » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:51 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10746
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
This goes back to the question a dozen pages ago or so of how long the location of Darius can be kept a secret. There are already too many ships going in and out of it.

Hundred if not thousands of ships had trained up in bolthole and traveled out from that, in addition to any logistics ships making regular runs. Over a period of many years nothing leaked.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:03 am

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:This goes back to the question a dozen pages ago or so of how long the location of Darius can be kept a secret. There are already too many ships going in and out of it.

Hundred if not thousands of ships had trained up in bolthole and traveled out from that, in addition to any logistics ships making regular runs. Over a period of many years nothing leaked.


Good point. And maybe like Darius, all of them transited through the wormhole. Unlike Darius, the wormhole was not in the Refuge system, so all ships actually had to go hyper before dropping again and transiting.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:04 am

Robert_A_Woodward
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:29 pm

Brigade XO wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
I believe that the Silver Bullets were delivered to Warner, where they were added to the cargo of the freighter carrying the Beowulf shipments. As to what they picked up at that extra stop, it could had been the bombs that took out the Beowulf orbital habitats.


No, the shipment to Beowulf had been delayed/held (sounded like it was organized much earlier by the Alighment) at Warne but the Silver Bullet systems were manufactured at Darius. The SBA had to be shipped from Darius but the Alignment controlled freighter was given a specific location to stop- on the way to Beowulf and way out from anywhere- to receive the transfer from what seems to have been a streak drive ship to do the transfer.

(snip)


I am not certain what you are getting at. In one of the scenes of the September 1922 PD section of _Uncompromising Honor_, Daniel Detweiler is reporting to Benjamin that the Silver Bullets were ready for production. Then they discuss delivery and Benjamin says:

“Once we get them to Warner, we transship them to the Kalokainos ship and it sails off to Beowulf.”

The ship in question is the Star Galleon and in very start of the December 1922 PD section, they are dumping the Silver Bullets.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:56 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 13582
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

It occurred to me that the GA will not have the benefit of the Mycroft platforms when attacking Darius. And the Keyhole platforms might be eliminated as well. Aren't they just as vulnerable?

Also, as I previously suggested, I think that great big huge honking experiment of a Spider drive detector is tethered to the MBS.

I wonder if Haven has the system installed as well? And Grayson, the Andermani and Beowulf?

And will the tech be made available to the SL? It might incorporate certain tech that is still classified.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:01 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Admiral

Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:It occurred to me that the GA will not have the benefit of the Mycroft platforms when attacking Darius. And the Keyhole platforms might be eliminated as well. Aren't they just as vulnerable?


Yes and no. We know Keyhole II has ECM, PDLC clusters and can fire CMs. We know that because they contribute to the mothership's defence.

We don't know if the Mycrofts have that. I doubt they have as much defence, but they probably have more ECM.

Also, as I previously suggested, I think that great big huge honking experiment of a Spider drive detector is tethered to the MBS.


Yes, unless they can miniaturise it or make it mobile.

I wonder if Haven has the system installed as well? And Grayson, the Andermani and Beowulf?


They do now, for certain.
Top

Return to Honorverse