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GA-League War lessons learned

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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:44 pm

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schoeffelk wrote:I like all the technical, strategic, and tactical discussion but what about the crews, their morale and their level of competence.

With all the facts and rumors floating about the SLN, how would a current SLN battlegroup react when found in the same system as a half-dozen GA ships? The SLN doesn't have the range to engage, the GA LACs can lay doggo, in stealth, and allow the SLN to advance into a trap.

To reference the Napoleonic wars, the French and Spanish fleets had similar weapons, at times numerical superiority, and continued to be defeated. Leadership and the common sailor.

And the sailors' competence is linked to how much realistic training they're able to do. One of the problems with the French and Spanish fleets during the Napoleonic wars was the British blockage meant that the ships weren't able to sail out for training (because they'd be attacked if they left port). Some gunnery practice could be carried out in harbor, but practice with sail handling, aiming at targets while in motion, and practice in holding formations (or commanding formations) was effectively impossible.

So even when the continental navies were able to build enough new ships to have local numerical superiority their crew and officer inexperience told strongly against them. (And of course if your opponent keeps winning against the numerical odds pretty soon that starts psychologically messing with you; making it that much worse)


The SLN at least shouldn't suffer being blockaded in. But training disparity will definitely play into crew competency; and hence to their effectiveness.
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:11 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
schoeffelk wrote:I like all the technical, strategic, and tactical discussion but what about the crews, their morale and their level of competence.

With all the facts and rumors floating about the SLN, how would a current SLN battlegroup react when found in the same system as a half-dozen GA ships? The SLN doesn't have the range to engage, the GA LACs can lay doggo, in stealth, and allow the SLN to advance into a trap.

To reference the Napoleonic wars, the French and Spanish fleets had similar weapons, at times numerical superiority, and continued to be defeated. Leadership and the common sailor.

And the sailors' competence is linked to how much realistic training they're able to do. One of the problems with the French and Spanish fleets during the Napoleonic wars was the British blockage meant that the ships weren't able to sail out for training (because they'd be attacked if they left port). Some gunnery practice could be carried out in harbor, but practice with sail handling, aiming at targets while in motion, and practice in holding formations (or commanding formations) was effectively impossible.

So even when the continental navies were able to build enough new ships to have local numerical superiority their crew and officer inexperience told strongly against them. (And of course if your opponent keeps winning against the numerical odds pretty soon that starts psychologically messing with you; making it that much worse)


The SLN at least shouldn't suffer being blockaded in. But training disparity will definitely play into crew competency; and hence to their effectiveness.

No, the SLN will suffer from being grounded. Honor took their pilot's license away. Worse?

Shoeffelk, you are right. We have a habit of thinking strictly in terms of hardware overlooking the warm bodies.

There is no doubt the SLN took a big loss in that category. But how big a loss? We have to factor in the fact that many of them were there by nepotism and horse trading anyway, and probably weren't the very best officers. FF had the better officers and I don't think they participated in the carnage.

Plus, the SL is huge and fresh meat for the grinder shouldn't be a problem for them. And their education system should equal that of the MBS. They still have a first rate education system. Plus, none of the crew that they lost had any real experience anyway. FF had the real experience. The meat they lost to the grinder may turn out to be a good thing. Most of the meat was spoiled anyway.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by George J. Smith   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:02 am

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Seeing as FF has been disbanded, what percentage of its officers & men will end up going into BF?
.
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:52 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Seeing as FF has been disbanded, what percentage of its officers & men will end up going into BF?


and how many will be hired away by systems that no longer trust the SLN and want a strong System Defence Force ASAP
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:28 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Seeing as FF has been disbanded, what percentage of its officers & men will end up going into BF?


They got disbanded as an organisational unit because their purpose for existence was removed. But the people and ships that belonged to the FF didn't cease to exist.

The question that applies is in line of what Dauntless asked: how many people decided enough was enough and took their discharge? Or got hired away?
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:42 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:Seeing as FF has been disbanded, what percentage of its officers & men will end up going into BF?


They got disbanded as an organisational unit because their purpose for existence was removed. But the people and ships that belonged to the FF didn't cease to exist.

The question that applies is in line of what Dauntless asked: how many people decided enough was enough and took their discharge? Or got hired away?

What discharge. This is the Sol system. Wouldn't they all be under the Department of the Navy? :D Which means that if their time is not up their asses still belong to the Navy, and can be reassigned as the navy sees fit. No?

That brings up a question. Since the Honorverse has prolong, how long are standard enlistments in the Navy. Four years seem way too short for a prolong society.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:05 pm

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cthia wrote:What discharge. This is the Sol system. Wouldn't they all be under the Department of the Navy? :D Which means that if their time is not up their asses still belong to the Navy, and can be reassigned as the navy sees fit. No?

That brings up a question. Since the Honorverse has prolong, how long are standard enlistments in the Navy. Four years seem way too short for a prolong society.


I have no idea how long enlistment periods are. I suppose they also don't know very well, since we're early in the prolong society. This could still be in flux.

When I said that the FF sailors could take their discharges, I was assuming that the SLN was downsizing, so it offered to allow the enlisted to go. But you're right that it wouldn't let go the ones that actually had something to contribute. For those whose term was coming up, it could offer a bonus to re-up their enlistment. Everyone knows that it's the Chiefs that actually run the navy.

Commissioned officers, on the other hand, could simply resign their commissions at any time, since there was no declared war. But I also suspect this is where the rot was worse, so shedding the officer corp dead weight would be welcome.
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by cthia   » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:36 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote: Everyone knows that it's the Chiefs that actually run the navy.


Something Scotty might say ...

'Canna resist this Captain. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. That's always been their bloody problem.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by tonyz   » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:27 am

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FF is still fine - Frontier Fleet hasn’t changed much.

What got disbanded was the Office of Frontier Security - the spies and the gendarme battalions.
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Re: GA-League War lessons learned
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:12 am

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tonyz wrote:FF is still fine - Frontier Fleet hasn’t changed much.

What got disbanded was the Office of Frontier Security - the spies and the gendarme battalions.

Frontier Fleet mostly served out in the Verge and Protectorates - places they will now be shot on sight. There isn't any real reason to maintain Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet as separate identities any more, so they'll likely be folded into each other and just be the SLN.
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