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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:19 am

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kzt wrote:You know, the purpose of a warehouse is to store cargo. Like cargo containers. Like say cargo containers with grav implosion bomb in them?

So you don't need a battle fleet to take out the infrastructure. You need a credit card.


Quite true. And given the amount of cargo transshipping at the Junction, there's no way to screen it all.

On the other hand, hitting all orbiting warehouses is going to be equally difficult with bombs. Definitely not at a single strike. But I think that even if spaced out over 6 months. As a terror campaign it would work and would cause a lot of economic turmoil. But it couldn't cripple the infrastructure, not like Giscard did during Second Basilisk during Icarus.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:28 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Interesting posts, all of you. I'm just not convinced the MWJ affects the negative hemisphere the same. Consider Newton's law of Universal Gravitation . . .


Forget "hemisphere."

I use hemisphere only as a more efficient manner to designate all positive bearings towards the junction. The negative hemisphere would comprise all negative bearings which may have to reverse course to obtain the proper bearing necessary for transit.

I'm not sold on random ejection from the junction. If that were the case, there would be random transit lanes. Yet, the transit lanes are locked to a specific bearing determined by ships like Harvest Joy. If ejection is random, then a fleet of ships would emerge all scattered about, on bearings as wildly haphazard and random as the results of two wildly divergent astrogators. Plus, I don't recall storyline ever stating that a warship has to reverse course before heading in-system. If Honor would have had to do that at BoM, all could have been lost.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Junction is a volume of space one light-second in radius in which there exist multiple inbound and outbound lanes. Those lanes are cylindrical in nature and very limited in height.

On the one hand, limitations in lane size is stressed. On the other hand, discussions about how ships are stacked far enough apart are bandied about. If an entire fleet can use one lane in a mass transit then that isn't so constrained in size as far as this discussion goes. I would also imagine the lanes are somewhat grouped together, offering an impressive overall area in conjunction (pardon the pun.) Which, taken together, should go a long way in blocking return fire from certain aspects about the positive hemisphere of the junction.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: Outside of those lanes, space seems to be normal exactly as outside the volume of the Junction. The only reason it's different from anywhere else in deep space is the Resonance Zone and the fact that some type of gravitic sensor can tell that the Junction is there at all. Moreover, there has been no indication that electromagnetic radiation is affected at all. For all we know, a beam of light going straight down the departure lane passes through the wormhole point and continues on unaffected.

I agree that space outside the junction is normal. And, light simply has to pass thru the junctions or ships would find themselves being somewhat occluded by the junction. But, just because light passes thru the junction from the positive hemisphere allowing detection of enemy ships in the negative hemisphere, doesn't mean GA ships can fire thru the junction hitting LDs which are essentially on a bearing directly behind the Junction and its mess of transit lanes. Certainly not a missile attack. And I suspect energy weapons aren't as accurate.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:David may still contradict us and say that there are "false lanes" or other types of gravitational anomalies. He may also tell us that some EM radiation is affected in some ways.

It is difficult to believe that energy weapons wouldn't be affected in some manner at certain points. Albeit I agree that being intuitive doesn't guarantee perfect alignment with David's World.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:He can't say that you can't fire from inside a lane out or outside in, since we know that has been done. So at least graser beams coming and going through the sides of the lane cylinder continue unaffected.

Has both been done? Firing from inside out, and from outside in? Interesting point, I can't decide which would/should be affected more, if they both are affected somewhat.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Finally, on hemisphere: there's no indication whatsoever that the departure or arrival lanes are oriented towards the Manticore-A system. They could be all over the place and any course corrections required to reorient would take a handful of seconds for a ship under impellers, so they wouldn't be worthy of notice in the books.

A course correction from a completely opposite bearing from the planet could take a significant amount of time to completely reverse acceleration. And if this exit from the junction is indeed random then all the ships in the fleet should be scattered and they must take time to regroup before charging on. It also sounds like a fleet could be defeated in detail upon exit before they reform.

cthia wrote:That particular relationship is going to exist more strongly between the MWJ and the planet, the two most massive objects in the system. The direction of grav eddys should extend toward the "positive" hemisphere, intuitively. Albeit, I'll certainly agree that "intuitively" isn't necessarily written in stone.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:If by "planet" you mean "star," sure. But at 7 light-hours out, even the gravitational influence of a G0 star is very diminished (the escape velocity there is a mere 6 km/s, less than that of the surface of Earth and Venus, just over that of Mars). More importantly, we don't know what the mass of the WH is. There has never been any indication in any of the books of what that might be, or even if it has a mass. In fact, given that ships, forts, warehouses, and all sorts of other construction park in the vicinity of the wormholes, if they have any mass at all, they would be very small indeed.

For all intents and purposes, I think we can assume they do have mass because 1. They exert gravitational influence on certain regions of space. 2. This gravitational influence varies from wormhole to wormhole. If their size (loosely, mass) didn't matter, Harvest Joy's job would be a lot easier.

cthia wrote:Another aspect worthy of consideration is the fact that warships which are exiting from the junction are automatically ejected from the junction on a bearing in the positive hemisphere on a vector towards the planet. IINM, warships cannot control their bearing prior to exit. As far as I know, warships cannot exit the junction on a negative bearing facing ships hypering in from the negative hemisphere? Admittedly, that could simply be an ability the author hasn't yet had cause to share. My guess tho, would be no. The ability does not exist. The MWJ regurgitates ships in the direction of the planet.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:We do not know that they are vectored towards the inner system. See above.

Yet, the cone or cylinder does have direction. At any rate, to what limitation does this completely random set of exit vectors have? None? No rhyme or reason? Well, that must surely make ACS's job a nightmare. Let alone poor Stephania Grimm who has to rack 'em and stack 'em.

cthia wrote:All of that causes me to believe the concentrated rubber band of dangerous gravity is stretched toward the planet, and it - and it's effect - is mostly directional. Leaving ships at the "back door" operating under a different set of "parameters." Which might not affect the LDs to the same degree.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:Even if you're right and the distribution of legitimate traffic is hemispherically lopsided, the forts wouldn't be. The forts exist to protect mostly against attack from hyper, not via the wormholes. Therefore, it stands to reason that they would be arranged to protect as much as possible all venues of attack. There's no reason to expect the enemy to come from a particular direction in space.

Agreed, but my thoughts on that matter were originally based on an assumption that specific classified astrogation data would be needed to hyper in on an immediately threatening vector. To build hyper logs, one has to travel the routes. I don't think any ships are allowed to take certain routes in or around the junction mapping certain avenues of attack, nor will they be given classified astrogation data. Ships can emerge from hyper in the "general vicinity" of the junction. But not on top of it. I still believe that.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Rule #1 of Space Warfare: the enemy gets a vote.

The attacking stealth ships would indeed seek to infiltrate using the least dense path possible, to maximise its own chances of remaining undetected. No doubt about that. And I suppose multiple such paths exist, even in the case of randomly-oriented departure and arrival lanes. So if there is a path through which the LD has a higher chance of remaining undetected, I expect it will try to take it.

We should also consider the least "suspected" path. The LDs can get inside your underwear with you. :-)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The problem is that the RMN knows that too. So it stands to reason that the RMN and ACS will also seed those paths with buoys blaring sensors as well as Ghost Rider recon drones. In fact, the RMN may even leave stealth mines of their own there. Rule #1 above applies in reverse too: the RMN gets a vote.

Absolutely, and I agree. But that comprises my entire point. The party will be positioned and trained on the norm. Completely blindsiding the GA with it's stealth doing something that isn't guarded against because it shouldn't have be possible. One doesn't waste security cameras which are a part of your home security system on your bedroom, or inside your home. You already take it as a given that those areas are free of the enemy.

cthia wrote:Jonathan answered one of my pending questions of whether the enemy can hyper in-system on a bearing directly towards the MWJ from the negative hemisphere. I know ordinarily there shouldn't be anything to prevent this except the limitations of the Resonance Zone (RZ)? But - and probably found only in my warped brain - I would think hypering in on that vector would only be possible if a warship has traveled that route before. I didn't think a ship could find its ass in hyper if its ass hasn't traveled that route before. And I wouldn't think that the MBS would be too quick to share that astrogation data. If so, that data would surely be classified.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Hyper travel is done via a very precise inertial navigation system. So you can tell where you're arriving and our attitude relative to the reference point.

Merchant ships don't have as good a hyperlog as warships, so they drop out of hyper much farther out. After that, they manoeuvre to the outbound lanes or to the warehouses as needed. It isn't stated in the books, but I've always assumed that ships usually emerge in the direct line between source and destination. I think it is in one of the Manticore Ascendant books that a freighter is described as having a vector to or from the Solarian League. If this is correct, then ships should emerge in the vicinity of the Junction in all directions, with no preference whatsoever. In turn, that means neither the ACS nor the RMN have a reason to dedicate more resources to one direction over another.

That sounds like danger and chaos. No rhyme or reason to ships exiting the junction. No rhyme or reason to ships merging. Man must have structure.

cthia wrote:To be clear, I'm not saying the enemy cannot emerge from hyper in the negative hemisphere. But not on a perfect line straight up the X-axis or, for that matter, anywhere in immediate contention of the junction. And if my logic is correct, already hamstrung sensors won't be trained on certain areas.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The enemy is not going to emerge from hyper. There's no stealth in doing that, since the transition itself is a very bright source. Every sensor in the forts and recon drones is going to pick you up and retain a lock for the duration of your stay.

If LDs are going to attack anywhere in the Manticore Binary System, they will have to emerge 6 light-months out and spend 8 months at 0.8c coming, in order to perform a one-pass attack.

Never say never, the enemy may not share your same flavor of logic or tactics. A hyper translation could be a diversion of a sort.

At any rate, if I'm correct about a ship needing to have traveled on certain routes near the junction beforehand, an LD can transit out and map the area unbeknownst. Upward translations leave no clue.

At any rate, if targeting with energy weapons near the junction is a wee bit off on certain vectors due to the junction, and the stealth of the LDs throws off targeting even more, then just perhaps.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:39 pm

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cthia wrote:I use hemisphere only as a more efficient manner to designate all positive bearings towards the junction. The negative hemisphere would comprise all negative bearings which may have to reverse course to obtain the proper bearing necessary for transit.


That still makes assumptions not validated by textev.

I'm not sold on random ejection from the junction. If that were the case, there would be random transit lanes. Yet, the transit lanes are locked to a specific bearing determined by ships like Harvest Joy. If ejection is random, then a fleet of ships would emerge all scattered about, on bearings as wildly haphazard and random as the results of two wildly divergent astrogators. Plus, I don't recall storyline ever stating that a warship has to reverse course before heading in-system. If Honor would have had to do that at BoM, all could have been lost.


That's not what I meant. I meant that the orientation of the inbound and outbound vectors is arbitrary, with respect to one another and the parent star. They do not have to be oriented in any particular way, such as all pointing in the direction of the star or away from it.

Once found, a vector remains stable fr the duration of the wormhole's existence.

On the one hand, limitations in lane size is stressed. On the other hand, discussions about how ships are stacked far enough apart are bandied about. If an entire fleet can use one lane in a mass transit then that isn't so constrained in size as far as this discussion goes. I would also imagine the lanes are somewhat grouped together, offering an impressive overall area in conjunction (pardon the pun.) Which, taken together, should go a long way in blocking return fire from certain aspects about the positive hemisphere of the junction.


We don't have a detailed explanation of how a mass transit works. But also note that the cylinder of the departure lane is much bigger than a ship, especially if the wedges are down. Ships are small compared to anything else, with the largest of them being no bigger than 500 m wide. You can fit a lot of ships abreast in the lane and definitely a lot of them back to back. My guess is that a mass transit is accomplished by having all the ships in the departure lane at the same time, back to back, with Warshawski sails on. Everyone that is in the departure lane transits, then the WH locks down.

I agree that space outside the junction is normal. And, light simply has to pass thru the junctions or ships would find themselves being somewhat occluded by the junction. But, just because light passes thru the junction from the positive hemisphere allowing detection of enemy ships in the negative hemisphere, doesn't mean GA ships can fire thru the junction hitting LDs which are essentially on a bearing directly behind the Junction and its mess of transit lanes. Certainly not a missile attack. And I suspect energy weapons aren't as accurate.


I don't agree, but this argument is irrelevant, since the forts are all over the volume of the Junction, so they and more importantly the missile pods will have line of sight to the LDs wherever they are.

Has both been done? Firing from inside out, and from outside in? Interesting point, I can't decide which would/should be affected more, if they both are affected somewhat.


At least from outside in, yes (Battle of Ajay-Prime). I'm assuming the opposite is true since physical phenomena tend to be reversible in space (though there are known exceptions).

A course correction from a completely opposite bearing from the planet could take a significant amount of time to completely reverse acceleration. And if this exit from the junction is indeed random then all the ships in the fleet should be scattered and they must take time to regroup before charging on. It also sounds like a fleet could be defeated in detail upon exit before they reform.


No, it couldn't. Even if the arrival lane is directly opposite of the planet, the arrival velocity is very low. Well, at leat the departure velocity is slow, since ships are effectively waiting in queue and then accelerate at 20 gravities. Plus, everything we know about hyperspace is that it bleeds momentum and kinetic energy. So there's no reason the wormhole would spit ships out at high speed.

That being the case, once the ship exits the arrival lane, turning around to orient towards the planet is less than a minute of acceleration under full impeller power, especially for warships. So, no, it wouldn't be mentioned.

As for randomness, see above for the misunderstanding.

For all intents and purposes, I think we can assume they do have mass because 1. They exert gravitational influence on certain regions of space. 2. This gravitational influence varies from wormhole to wormhole. If their size (loosely, mass) didn't matter, Harvest Joy's job would be a lot easier.


They do not exert a form of gravitational influence known to our current science. Therefore, we cannot extrapolate that the wormholes have mass the way we understand them. Also note how an impeller produces a band of gravity pushing 200,000 gravities, yet the ship does not dismantle by gravitational stress. So somehow in the HV, gravitational effects can be limited in range.

Another detail is that if it did have a non-negligible mass, detecting the presence of a wormhole would be trivial by any survey expedition worth their money. We can do that today and we have been doing that for a couple centuries already (Neptune's existence and location was predicted before it was ever spotted).

Since detecting wormholes isn't easy, there's an upper limit on what the mass of the wormhole and its gravitational effects can be. It must be much smaller than even Pluto.

Agreed, but my thoughts on that matter were originally based on an assumption that specific classified astrogation data would be needed to hyper in on an immediately threatening vector. To build hyper logs, one has to travel the routes. I don't think any ships are allowed to take certain routes in or around the junction mapping certain avenues of attack, nor will they be given classified astrogation data. Ships can emerge from hyper in the "general vicinity" of the junction. But not on top of it. I still believe that.


I don't think you're correct, but like above, that's also irrelevant. First, as the single most visited location in the known Galaxy, almost any possible vector would have been flown by someone. It wouldn't be difficult for an attacker to obtain this data, or generate by themselves by sending a freighter or DB first to collect it. Therefore, the RMN has to assume an enemy can come from any vector and defend its bread-winner accordingly.

Second, approach vectors on n-space definitely don't need prior exploration and an LD would approach using n-space, not drop in from outside weapons range at a near stand-still, against prepared defences.

Absolutely, and I agree. But that comprises my entire point. The party will be positioned and trained on the norm. Completely blindsiding the GA with it's stealth doing something that isn't guarded against because it shouldn't have be possible. One doesn't waste security cameras which are a part of your home security system on your bedroom, or inside your home. You already take it as a given that those areas are free of the enemy.


I don't think I was clear.

I meant that any non-legitimate traffic path is watched closely and is probably a minefield. LD's stealth doesn't apply to navigation in a minefield, since it's pitting stealth against stealth. Worse, it's a 12 million-tonne ship that is emitting, even if very lowly, against a mine that is a couple of tonnes and is not emitting. It's one against thousands.

Navigating through a minefield you don't have a map for and can't generate one on the fly implies you must succeed every time, against every mine. Statistically, this is unlikely. The other side only has to succeed once, and even if the mine does not significantly damage the LD, it will light the intruder up for all the other mines and the forts.

You may argue that there is no such minefield around the Junction. I argue that if there are paths through which ships aren't routinely navigating, then there is a minefield there. Conversely, the absence of a minefield implies there are ships everywhere, which means stealth insertion is quite difficult.

That sounds like danger and chaos. No rhyme or reason to ships exiting the junction. No rhyme or reason to ships merging. Man must have structure.


On transit arrival lanes, see above.

But you're right about arrival via hyper and ships departing via hyper. Can they collide because they'd be oriented the same way? Space is vast. So the chances of a collision are, literally, astronomically small.

But it's possible that merchant ships are instructed to translate to n-space around the Junction at least x light-seconds out, whereas departing ships translate right at the hyperlimit. That means arriving ships never emerge on top of departing ones. After arriving, they can enter the proper paths leading to their destination. That's what ACS is for, after all.

At this point, yes, if there are proper vectors that every legitimate ship follows, there is a lot of empty space where no one is. And I maintain that this space would be mined.

Never say never, the enemy may not share your same flavor of logic or tactics. A hyper translation could be a diversion of a sort.

At any rate, if I'm correct about a ship needing to have traveled on certain routes near the junction beforehand, an LD can transit out and map the area unbeknownst. Upward translations leave no clue.


And as I said above, since anyone can do that, the RMN has to assume that anyone can arrive on any vector and must plan a defence according to this reality.

At any rate, if targeting with energy weapons near the junction is a wee bit off on certain vectors due to the junction, and the stealth of the LDs throws off targeting even more, then just perhaps.


And like previous suggestions of how to use LDs, the cost-benefit ratio of this attack is completely non-sensical.

The MAlign needs to invest months of a capital ship on a stealth insertion. Such a tactic only makes sense if there's a good likelihood of success and a big pay-off. I don't see either, especially the pay-off. Even if everything you said is true and the LD can sneak through a path undetected and get into a position that he defenders can't immediately shoot at, what can it do? Shoot up a few merchant ships before the cavalry comes along and the forts jink to get into position?

And this if it even has the time. The LD isn't likely to slow down sufficiently to take on more than a handful of targets. Slowing down means it's a sitting duck.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:15 am

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Yeah, the only way it would makes sense to use a LD that close to heavy defenses is if the RMN parked a fleet there with their wedges down. Which we know they do. Like at Beowulf. Only pity stayed the MAN's hand. A pity that they didn't have any LDs available...
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ZVar   » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:29 am

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One thing to note from text. Stealth is directional and the forts cover a 360 sphere.
While the LD's might be invisible to a few forts, there is no way to hide them from all forts.
For example the waste heat radiating out on one side away from where people are expected.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Joat42   » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:08 am

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ZVar wrote:One thing to note from text. Stealth is directional and the forts cover a 360 sphere.
While the LD's might be invisible to a few forts, there is no way to hide them from all forts.
For example the waste heat radiating out on one side away from where people are expected.

Also, at the distances discussed, stealth is useless since just a mass of couple thousands tons is very noticeable due to it's influence on the local space.

---
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:03 am

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kzt wrote:Yeah, the only way it would makes sense to use a LD that close to heavy defenses is if the RMN parked a fleet there with their wedges down. Which we know they do. Like at Beowulf. Only pity stayed the MAN's hand. A pity that they didn't have any LDs available...


Yes, they did, but that was a form of stealth. It's not like the RMN and BSDF announced that the fleet of SD(P)s were there with wedges down. If the MAN has the information on the location, then it's compromised OpSec very thoroughly and things are going to hell in a basket. But we know that the agents are now almost all caught, since the chance of this kind of leak is practically non-existent.

Even if it has the information of where, there's the question of when. It would need to know that a fleet with wedges down will be somewhere in a particular system a couple of months in advance so it can send its own stealth attack platforms, whether they are LDs or Silver Bullets / torpedoes. And then it needs to know where exactly in the system down to less than 1 light-second radius so those platforms can actually manoeuvre into position.

And this is assuming the fleet in question doesn't have Ghost Riders watching out, which they should.

So the MAN can't catch a fleet with wedges down with LDs. Those need to be inserted many months before the attack, possibly even before the fleet arrives. There's no way that they're going to remain in stealth, dead in space, if they detect an unexplained hyper translation.

With Silver Bullet torpedoes that may be possible. It would involve knowing the fleet arrived and disappeared from sensors, then sending a freighter to disgorge the SBs and find that fleet. But again there's an issue of timing and the control loop: is there sufficient time to detect the opportunity and deploy assets before the fleet leaves? And will the control freaks at Darius allow the MAN captains the autonomy to make these decisions?
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:29 am

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cthia wrote:I'm not sold on random ejection from the junction. If that were the case, there would be random transit lanes. Yet, the transit lanes are locked to a specific bearing determined by ships like Harvest Joy. If ejection is random, then a fleet of ships would emerge all scattered about, on bearings as wildly haphazard and random as the results of two wildly divergent astrogators. Plus, I don't recall storyline ever stating that a warship has to reverse course before heading in-system. If Honor would have had to do that at BoM, all could have been lost.

I don't know that a course reversal would be worth mentioning - becuase it'd take so little time. Ships emerge at near zero velocity and we're told they clear the Junction's extra-long emergence lane in 4.5 minutes.

Also we know that there are acceleration limits in the lane - ships are held to about 250g even at emergency acceleration.

So even if an emergence lane did point in completely the wrong direction the extra time it'd take Honor's fleet to turn around would be a handful of minutes. (Since as soon as they clear the lane they can bring up wedges and accelerate at around 600g)


But would they really need to turn around?
Honor didn't take 8th fleet charging across the 7 lighthour realspace distance from the Junction towards Manticore-A; she microjumped. And you should be able to microjump from any point on the periphery of the Junction's hyper limit. (Even from within the RZ; as long as your destination is outside the RZ)
cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:He can't say that you can't fire from inside a lane out or outside in, since we know that has been done. So at least graser beams coming and going through the sides of the lane cylinder continue unaffected.

Has both been done? Firing from inside out, and from outside in? Interesting point, I can't decide which would/should be affected more, if they both are affected somewhat.
The only time we've seen anything of this was when Harvest Joy was destroyed at 'the twins'. The BCs engaged her within seconds of emergence - far too little time for her to have clear the emergence lane. So their grasers clearly had no trouble accurately shooting into the emergence lane.
As for shooting out from the emergence lane - we haven't seen that "on screen" but it's clearly implied by Manticore's pre-war concerns about a Havenite hostile transit. If the emerging ships couldn't fire their energy weapons out then the defending forts could have been positioned well within energy weapons range without any concern about losses as they'd have over four minutes to shred the incoming ships (which have no sidewalls to protect them). But we know Manticore expected to take losses to the forts from return fire (and we know that fire couldn't be missile based - not until the ships survive that 4.5 minute gauntlet) because they had plans for moving the more distant forts in to replace those destroyed.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't have a detailed explanation of how a mass transit works. But also note that the cylinder of the departure lane is much bigger than a ship, especially if the wedges are down. Ships are small compared to anything else, with the largest of them being no bigger than 500 m wide. You can fit a lot of ships abreast in the lane and definitely a lot of them back to back. My guess is that a mass transit is accomplished by having all the ships in the departure lane at the same time, back to back, with Warshawski sails on. Everyone that is in the departure lane transits, then the WH locks down.

Though ships do need to have their sails up to transit. So that's a couple hundred km radius disc sticking out perpendicular from their hulls.

However the emergence lane's grav effects are probably around 25,000 km across (and 90,000 km long) so there's still lots of volume to put ships side by side even if they do need to stay hundreds of km apart.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:47 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm not sold on random ejection from the junction. If that were the case, there would be random transit lanes. Yet, the transit lanes are locked to a specific bearing determined by ships like Harvest Joy. If ejection is random, then a fleet of ships would emerge all scattered about, on bearings as wildly haphazard and random as the results of two wildly divergent astrogators. Plus, I don't recall storyline ever stating that a warship has to reverse course before heading in-system. If Honor would have had to do that at BoM, all could have been lost.

I don't know that a course reversal would be worth mentioning - becuase it'd take so little time. Ships emerge at near zero velocity and we're told they clear the Junction's extra-long emergence lane in 4.5 minutes.

Also we know that there are acceleration limits in the lane - ships are held to about 250g even at emergency acceleration.

So even if an emergence lane did point in completely the wrong direction the extra time it'd take Honor's fleet to turn around would be a handful of minutes. (Since as soon as they clear the lane they can bring up wedges and accelerate at around 600g)


But would they really need to turn around?
Honor didn't take 8th fleet charging across the 7 lighthour realspace distance from the Junction towards Manticore-A; she microjumped. And you should be able to microjump from any point on the periphery of the Junction's hyper limit. (Even from within the RZ; as long as your destination is outside the RZ)

But that's just it, I'm not so sure it wouldn't take a significant amount of time if everyone's take on it rings true. I'm not saying the absolute time allotted to reorient and reform would be significant in an absolute manner. I'm saying the time necessary to reverse course and reform would be significant applied to a particular situation. It could have been the difference between any of Third Fleet's ships surviving at all.

Consider what simply has to happen in the real world and not just on paper. If ships are being ejected from the junction in all directions, then each ship has to perform its maneuver slowly, not knowing when and where another ship will emerge. Plus, if thirty ships are being ejected, there is no rhyme or reason to each one of their emergence vectors. They can't simply immediately go to emergency military power in such a dense unpredictable traffic pattern. There will be a fender bender for certain.

And again, remember that Stephania Grimm is racking 'em and stacking 'em. She has control of them for awhile, as I was under the impression her job was to prevent such fender benders. I simply can't envision how she can rack 'em and stack 'em safely if there is no rhyme or reason to emergence.

cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:He can't say that you can't fire from inside a lane out or outside in, since we know that has been done. So at least graser beams coming and going through the sides of the lane cylinder continue unaffected.


Has both been done? Firing from inside out, and from outside in? Interesting point, I can't decide which would/should be affected more, if they both are affected somewhat.
Jonathan_S wrote:The only time we've seen anything of this was when Harvest Joy was destroyed at 'the twins'. The BCs engaged her within seconds of emergence - far too little time for her to have clear the emergence lane. So their grasers clearly had no trouble accurately shooting into the emergence lane.

You're probably right, but can we assume they had no trouble targeting? It may have taken several more shots than it should have.

Jonathan_S wrote:As for shooting out from the emergence lane - we haven't seen that "on screen" but it's clearly implied by Manticore's pre-war concerns about a Havenite hostile transit. If the emerging ships couldn't fire their energy weapons out then the defending forts could have been positioned well within energy weapons range without any concern about losses as they'd have over four minutes to shred the incoming ships (which have no sidewalls to protect them). But we know Manticore expected to take losses to the forts from return fire (and we know that fire couldn't be missile based - not until the ships survive that 4.5 minute gauntlet) because they had plans for moving the more distant forts in to replace those destroyed.

Makes sense to me.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We don't have a detailed explanation of how a mass transit works. But also note that the cylinder of the departure lane is much bigger than a ship, especially if the wedges are down. Ships are small compared to anything else, with the largest of them being no bigger than 500 m wide. You can fit a lot of ships abreast in the lane and definitely a lot of them back to back. My guess is that a mass transit is accomplished by having all the ships in the departure lane at the same time, back to back, with Warshawski sails on. Everyone that is in the departure lane transits, then the WH locks down.
Jonathan_S wrote:Though ships do need to have their sails up to transit. So that's a couple hundred km radius disc sticking out perpendicular from their hulls.

However the emergence lane's grav effects are probably around 25,000 km across (and 90,000 km long) so there's still lots of volume to put ships side by side even if they do need to stay hundreds of km apart.

And that would comprise a significant amount of area where missiles and mines would fear to tread.

I still think such an unorthodox attack along with taking out specific forts by an imploding bomb or nanite infection will do the trick. Then the LDs can remain hidden behind the junction playing cat and mouse with any other fort trying to work its way to the rescue. As soon as a fort pokes its head around the junction on the negative hemisphere, it gets destroyed. Remember, the LDs would still be hidden. It would be the same cat and mouse tactic at play Theisman used around Blackbird. And, sending probes around the junction as a tactic my niece suggested Honor should have used to detect Theisman wouldn't work. I'm betting they won't detect the LDs, and their wedges won't work anyway.

BTW, what is the acceleration of an LD vs a fort?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:50 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1710
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

cthia wrote:But that's just it, I'm not so sure it wouldn't take a significant amount of time if everyone's take on it rings true. I'm not saying the absolute time allotted to reorient and reform would be significant in an absolute manner. I'm saying the time necessary to reverse course and reform would be significant applied to a particular situation. It could have been the difference between any of Third Fleet's ships surviving at all.

Consider what simply has to happen in the real world and not just on paper. If ships are being ejected from the junction in all directions, then each ship has to perform its maneuver slowly, not knowing when and where another ship will emerge. Plus, if thirty ships are being ejected, there is no rhyme or reason to each one of their emergence vectors. They can't simply immediately go to emergency military power in such a dense unpredictable traffic pattern. There will be a fender bender for certain.


That's not what I was saying and I suspect not the others either.

All ships arriving have the same vector and that vector is known to both the ships and traffic control. It's been known since the first transit to the particular other terminus. I'm only arguing that the orientation of the exit lane has no particular preference to the inner system.

It's not random, it's arbitrary.

So in an emergency transit, traffic control knows exactly who's coming and when, and the navigators in those warships are capable enough to clear the arrival lane quickly and go into the holding formation (hurry up and wait). Most of Honor's ships did this prior to the final mass transit, then the mass transit happened and all ships in that transit emerged in the exact relationship they had to each other in Trevor's Star. At that point her navigator told all the ships to begin steaming for the hyper limit, in a way that each ship individually also moved into formation with the rest of the wall.

Jonathan is also asking what point on the hyperlimit they will travel to. There are two possibilities: first, the point on the limit on the straight line connecting the inner system with the Junction, which is necessarily inside the RZ. Second, the point "directly ahead" from wherever the arrival lane. This second point is possible, since the ships can translate to hyper and [i\then[/i] reorient. The translation bleeds speed anyway: if radius of the Junction's hyper limit is half a million km, they'd reach only 2425 km/s on the limit, at which point the translation to Alpha reduces that to 20% (485 km/s). Reversing course if oriented completely away from the inner system would take 82 seconds.

I think it's far more likely that they reverse course in n-space before travelling to the hyper limit, since they are arriving at relative standstill.

Yes, this could mean the difference between life and death for Third Fleet. But this is something that would be known before hand and accounted for.

BTW, what is the acceleration of an LD vs a fort?


Forts can make 50 gravities, LDs are known to push to 150 gravities without the crew suffering increased gravity. So a fort can't chase an LD or evade one. But it can move to a position it would have direct line of sight if it needed.

And as I said, a fort controls mines and defence satellites that tare everywhere, which means most of them have line of sight. They can also launch more missile-like platforms that can fire beam weapons.
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