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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:57 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Indeed. Not sure if I've posted this already; do forgive me if so. But I wonder if the Beowulf Code could die with the death of Beowulf. Beowulf would no longer be able to lobby for the Code's continued importance, against an entity with such an unprecedented philosophy with accompanying new data. Beowulf is the center for genetic R&D. Other than Alison, who else would be left in the galaxy to equal the knowledge of the MA? I suppose leaving Beowulf alive would be more like serving the dish cold when the MA are successful, but eliminating Beowulf would eliminate the MA's most vocal and medically capable adversary.


Good point, there's a good chance that even if Beowulf was taken out, it wouldn't be the death of the Code. It's the law in way too many systems, practically all of the non-outlaw ones anyway. So no, I don't think that taking Beowulf out has anything to do with the Code or their medical knowledge, or the capabilities of the Beowulf industry or the BSDF. It's simply personal.

In other words, it serves no strategic advantage. Consequently, they could leave it alive.

It is also frightening that the MA surely must have discovered an entirely new plague that can be unleashed upon the galaxy. A much deadlier plague of which only they have the cure. And without Beowulf? ...


Without Beowulf, there's only the other 11 of the Top Dozen medical centres in the Galaxy. There's no indication at all that they are that far ahead of anyone else. They may contribute disproportionately, but I we don't know if it's 10% of the Top 12 or 50% of the Top 12. Either way, there's plenty left.

Instead, I doubt there's anyone with the knowledge to fight back biological and bioengineered weapons, because no one has had them or used them since the Final War. In this case, Beowulf may not be of any significant help either.

Quite true. And frightening again. Personally, it is too soon to fathom another immoral entity with someone's testicles in its grasp. An entity having the testicles of the entire galaxy in hand is unfathomable. Yet ...

My point is two-fold.

One, if Beowulf is destroyed and a subtle message is sent throughout the galaxy that the Beowulf Code will no longer be tolerated as a way to control the masses and stifle the potential of mankind by subtle racism and prejudice -- and that genies will no longer tolerate being unable to wholly embrace their heritage by being made to hide in the shadows -- will the rest of the dozen medical establishments have the courage of Beowulf? A destroyed Beowulf? Will they be so willing to paint a target on their back and throw themselves under a malignant bus?

Two, I'm afraid of what any contingency plans of the MA might include. It reminds me of the worst of all the variations of Operation Beatrice offered up to Eloise by Theisman. If everyone is correct that the MA has no chance against the GA, and if that possibility becomes obvious to the MA in the middle of a war with the GA, then we would be insane if we didn't consider that the MA's contingency plan is a truly scorched earth policy. And that Beowulf may be the first to die.

It is even more insane for a sane entity to think that an insane entity will accept losing a war when the insane entity has the means to win the war if they embrace a truly ruthless strategy. The LDs one mission that cannot be stopped is a truly scorched earth policy.

Kill all infrastructure and decimate all planets.

We know the MA is the one entity that is capable of such ruthlessness. They have proved it already by instigating the insane operations of the SL.

It is high time we seriously consider EE violations. With an entity like the MA, I'm afraid the philosophy the author used to sidestep having to deal with someone who would embrace EE violations is no longer valid. Nor does it continue to make sense. The MA doesn't have to be afraid of reprisals being hidden away. They have the means, and it may very well be the only way they can win. It would be like America accepting defeat by the Japanese because we wouldn't drop the bomb.

Do we really think the MA wouldn't pull the trigger? If we are honest with ourselves, the LDs don't need any additional tech than what they already possess to win the war. And with the death of their father, one of the sons may arrive in the MBS with blood in his eye, and go on a killing spree that would make Honor look like Mary F. Poppins. The LDs finally represent submarines with the means to attack ports with impunity.

The LDs are unprecedented state of the art submarines carrying devastating IGBMs -- Intergalactic Ballistic Missiles. Use them.

We have the ways. We have the means. We have the motivation.

After all, the upcoming book is entitled To End in Fire.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:54 pm

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My guess is some of the parts of the Alignment plan include:

1) either manipulating the development of the Beowulf Code into a Detweiler version or growing their own "export" version for subversion of the code though the RF spread

2) Make SURE the proper people on Beowulf -like most of them- come to know that Detweiler's vision of advancing the "improving" human genetices compleatly replaces and discredits the Beowulf Code.

This is a very vindictive, hateful and driven group. What they hate must not only be eradicated, those that represent what is hated have to know they are being destoryed and dicredited and by who.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 pm

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cthia wrote:It is high time we seriously consider EE violations. With an entity like the MA, I'm afraid the philosophy the author used to sidestep having to deal with someone who would embrace EE violations is no longer valid. Nor does it continue to make sense. The MA doesn't have to be afraid of reprisals being hidden away. They have the means, and it may very well be the only way they can win. It would be like America accepting defeat by the Japanese because we wouldn't drop the bomb.

Do we really think the MA wouldn't pull the trigger? If we are honest with ourselves, the LDs don't need any additional tech than what they already possess to win the war. And with the death of their father, one of the sons may arrive in the MBS with blood in his eye, and go on a killing spree that would make Honor look like Mary F. Poppins. The LDs finally represent submarines with the means to attack ports with impunity.


That's a scary though. And you're right, the MAlign doesn't care about the Edict, so they don't feel compelled to obey its provisions. The attack on Beowulf was a violation, clearly and no question about it. It's not the threat of retaliation that may hold them back. But there are two things that might:

First, their own reasons. All actions fit into a strategy (regardless of whether the conclusions were correctly reached or not). And if the strategy doesn't call for this type of action, it won't be undertaken. So we know that, at least in the beginning and so long as they think they're winning, there won't be widespread violations. That doesn't mean there won't be any. And my provision was that so long as they're winning or think they are.

So if they begin to lose, they may lash out, as you said. And you're entirely right that Detweilers are the type of group that might do exactly that. As sociopaths, they won't care about the survival of others.

Which brings me to the second point: the MAN itself and the rest of MAlign. The Detweilers and the Inner Onion don't operate alone: there are hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions. Some people may have a conscience and refuse some orders.

I wouldn't count on there being a lot of them.

The LDs are unprecedented state of the art submarines carrying devastating IGBMs -- Intergalactic Ballistic Missiles. Use them.


They don't leave the galaxy, so the name can't be correct :)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:56 am

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The Alignment, along with everything else it's done, has just blown up the three largest orbital habitat of Beowulf.
It was clearly INTERNAL explosions, "normal" nuclear weapons and there was no warning. They were PRE PLANTED BOMBS, clearly intended (they had dupe in place to trigger them) while the Opperation Buccaneer attack was in progress and they staggard the explosions very precisely to send a message to Beowulf....a message which was figured out when the 2nd bomb went off but there was nothing that could be done about it. And the broader intent was to pin the blame on the SLN task force (which the GA upper leadership also figured out right away).

Note that the Alignment ALWAYS works though proxies and the only reason they went with "Silver Bullet"- well there were two reasons- was 1) create even more civilian deaths in the most graphic and massive manner striking at the essentialy Civilian Habitat/stations and 2) they were sure that the Buccaneer attack wasn't going to be very effective (and though there was damage and loss of life nothing like was in the SLN's intentions) they had to counter the GA anti missile/anti-ship defence net installed.

When else has the Alignment not used proxies? Oyster Bay. And that was esssentialy a desperation move to change the military balance of power/tec and put the destruction of the SL more or less back on track. And they HAD to use the Spider tech because a basic pricipal of the Detweiler Plan is that the Alignment must remain in the shadows and not become a target of any party/star nation they are screwing with or accrue any "blame" or bad press which would damage the illusion they must present as being the future of humanity.

So they use PRH Navy in Exile, just plain pirates, back various transtellars and set up what is supposed to start out as a diversely based (in terms of politics, tec, general philosophy) rallying point for system bailing out of the soon to be unmasked (in the Plan) SL as a corrupt and totaly lacking of any sorts of morals. The RF to gather together in common need and then reach out to other systems in aid and self defence----and infect their new allied systems with everything the Alignment wants done to change the medical/moral/political and social systems of humanity anywhere.

The Alignment routinely rigs it security agents (look at the fake Seccie covert agent) and a vast number of it's covert agents, moles, cat's paws etc with killer nanites which fall into three general groups. 1) the person dies if the nanites are not periodicaly "reset" and 2) if the wrong questions and/or situations happen to the person the "die" of "natual causes. And, of course # 3) someone feeds the agent a code word or phrase and something happens like he flies himself at max acceration into a mountainside- or shoots himself with his own pulser or triggers a binary chemical gas bomb.

The ONLY reason the Alighment will pay any attention to "rules" and law is to avoid being first dicoverd and then blamed. So Oyster Bay was not "technicaly" an EE violation.

You have to admit that the entire scheme to destroy the SL- so the Alignment could pick up the pieces and remake the brutalized systems to it's intened image as sub-cast ants- was to inflict as much damage to ability to resist and kill off much of the people with the capasity and training (or desire) to resist the Alignment. They don't NEED any of these people except as possible sources (or test subjects) for genetics and tech experiments. It is the Alighments intent to create and keep "improving" variations of humans to fit it's needs and desires.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:29 am

cthia
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Posts: 13129
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:It is high time we seriously consider EE violations. With an entity like the MA, I'm afraid the philosophy the author used to sidestep having to deal with someone who would embrace EE violations is no longer valid. Nor does it continue to make sense. The MA doesn't have to be afraid of reprisals being hidden away. They have the means, and it may very well be the only way they can win. It would be like America accepting defeat by the Japanese because we wouldn't drop the bomb.

Do we really think the MA wouldn't pull the trigger? If we are honest with ourselves, the LDs don't need any additional tech than what they already possess to win the war. And with the death of their father, one of the sons may arrive in the MBS with blood in his eye, and go on a killing spree that would make Honor look like Mary F. Poppins. The LDs finally represent submarines with the means to attack ports with impunity.


That's a scary though. And you're right, the MAlign doesn't care about the Edict, so they don't feel compelled to obey its provisions. The attack on Beowulf was a violation, clearly and no question about it. It's not the threat of retaliation that may hold them back. But there are two things that might:

First, their own reasons. All actions fit into a strategy (regardless of whether the conclusions were correctly reached or not). And if the strategy doesn't call for this type of action, it won't be undertaken. So we know that, at least in the beginning and so long as they think they're winning, there won't be widespread violations. That doesn't mean there won't be any. And my provision was that so long as they're winning or think they are.

So if they begin to lose, they may lash out, as you said. And you're entirely right that Detweilers are the type of group that might do exactly that. As sociopaths, they won't care about the survival of others.

Which brings me to the second point: the MAN itself and the rest of MAlign. The Detweilers and the Inner Onion don't operate alone: there are hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions. Some people may have a conscience and refuse some orders.

I wouldn't count on there being a lot of them.

The LDs are unprecedented state of the art submarines carrying devastating IGBMs -- Intergalactic Ballistic Missiles. Use them.


They don't leave the galaxy, so the name can't be correct :)

One would like to think there would be those who would object to such orders, but there hasn't been any conscientious objectors thus far. And thus far there has been many a horrid thing to object about, that, in many ways, isn't too far behind the insanity of total planetary destruction. In fact, I recall a personal observation that they all seem to get off on it. Remember, this mindset is bred and highly cultivated within the species. Besides, if anyone does object, we all know, as well as he or she, what the result of that will be.

Albeit, if enough of them object, perhaps an LD can be delivered to the GA with databanks intact. Along with a map. Reminds me of the movie Hunt for Red October, where that highly advanced sub was delivered to the enemy.

My bad. Intragalactic.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:56 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Note that the Alignment ALWAYS works though proxies and the only reason they went with "Silver Bullet"- well there were two reasons- was 1) create even more civilian deaths in the most graphic and massive manner striking at the essentialy Civilian Habitat/stations and 2) they were sure that the Buccaneer attack wasn't going to be very effective (and though there was damage and loss of life nothing like was in the SLN's intentions) they had to counter the GA anti missile/anti-ship defence net installed.


I agree with your entire post, except for this part about the Silver Bullet. I don't see how the SB was tied to more violence and death, especially if they were sure that the attack (that was Fabius, not Buccaneer) was not going to succeed. The Silver Bullet was actually meant to give the attack some chance to succeed. That in turn would be the pretext for the violence.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:51 pm

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:My guess is some of the parts of the Alignment plan include:

1) either manipulating the development of the Beowulf Code into a Detweiler version or growing their own "export" version for subversion of the code though the RF spread

2) Make SURE the proper people on Beowulf -like most of them- come to know that Detweiler's vision of advancing the "improving" human genetices compleatly replaces and discredits the Beowulf Code.

This is a very vindictive, hateful and driven group. What they hate must not only be eradicated, those that represent what is hated have to know they are being destroyed and discredited and by who.

Indeed. That thought is part of notion of the MA's possible desire to serve the dish cold. If they destroy Beowulf, the gloat factor is eliminated.

Instead of destroying the Code, the MA could lobby for the safety markers to be moved a bit further along. Highly unlikely they would care to negotiate. Would the dozen of medical experts be open to a reassessment of the Code? That is a loaded question with many dependents, I know.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:29 pm

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cthia wrote:Indeed. That thought is part of notion of the MA's possible desire to serve the dish cold. If they destroy Beowulf, the gloat factor is eliminated.

Instead of destroying the Code, the MA could lobby for the safety markers to be moved a bit further along. Highly unlikely they would care to negotiate. Would the dozen of medical experts be open to a reassessment of the Code? That is a loaded question with many dependents, I know.


The interesting point is that the answer is probably "yes." In fact, the code has been evolving for the last millennium, adjusting to advancements in medicine and change in moral. The Code is not meant to prevent improvement to Humanity, quod vide adaptations to heavy gravity planets that were and are commonplace. The most recent is Allison's intervention in Grayson to cure the side-effect of their original genetic tinkering.

RFC has said that if the MAlign had just operated in the open, without the genetic slavery, they'd have already achieved Leonard Detweiler's wishes. Remember: the Detweiler Plan, though probably named after Leonard Detweiler, wasn't created by him. It was created long after he was dead.

What the Code is meant to prevent is involuntary / uninformed modifications, gross side-effects (such as what happens to genetic slaves), and the creation of a caste of super humans. That is not subject to change and that is what the MAlign wants. So there can't be an accommodation.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:31 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Indeed. That thought is part of notion of the MA's possible desire to serve the dish cold. If they destroy Beowulf, the gloat factor is eliminated.

Instead of destroying the Code, the MA could lobby for the safety markers to be moved a bit further along. Highly unlikely they would care to negotiate. Would the dozen of medical experts be open to a reassessment of the Code? That is a loaded question with many dependents, I know.


The interesting point is that the answer is probably "yes." In fact, the code has been evolving for the last millennium, adjusting to advancements in medicine and change in moral. The Code is not meant to prevent improvement to Humanity, quod vide adaptations to heavy gravity planets that were and are commonplace. The most recent is Allison's intervention in Grayson to cure the side-effect of their original genetic tinkering.

RFC has said that if the MAlign had just operated in the open, without the genetic slavery, they'd have already achieved Leonard Detweiler's wishes. Remember: the Detweiler Plan, though probably named after Leonard Detweiler, wasn't created by him. It was created long after he was dead.

What the Code is meant to prevent is involuntary / uninformed modifications, gross side-effects (such as what happens to genetic slaves), and the creation of a caste of super humans. That is not subject to change and that is what the MAlign wants. So there can't be an accommodation.

Indeed, but they couldn't afford to operate in the open for all of the same reasons that they can ill-afford to share the data of their success. Namely, they would also have to show the data of their failures. The failures are a disgusting crime against nature. Mankind as a whole would not have accepted what the MA accepted to achieve success.

If the MA went about things in the light, it would have taken much longer to arrive at their present point. And perhaps they would never have arrived at all without accepting terrible consequences that no sane geneticist would accept. Accepting the Frankenstein complex millions of times over will never be sane or accepted. At any rate, of course the Detweilers know that their accomplishments are already illegal and a crime against nature. And the Detweilers will never be accepted. This is the wind beneath my notion that the MA is more apt to accept the total destruction of certain systems. They want the timeline of mankind to move from B.C. to A.D. to A.L.D.

Megalomania can accept no compromise by its very definition.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:24 pm

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cthia wrote:Indeed, but they couldn't afford to operate in the open for all of the same reasons that they can ill-afford to share the data of their success. Namely, they would also have to show the data of their failures. The failures are a disgusting crime against nature. Mankind as a whole would not have accepted what the MA accepted to achieve success.

If the MA went about things in the light, it would have taken much longer to arrive at their present point. And perhaps they would never have arrived at all without accepting terrible consequences that no sane geneticist would accept. Accepting the Frankenstein complex millions of times over will never be sane or accepted.


They could have operated in the open. Not with the methods they did employ, sure, because "the ends justify the means" isn't allowed to apply. But if they had adjusted their methods, Mesa could have cooperated with Beowulf. I don't doubt that they would still have done ethically dubious experiments, which is why Detweiler and friends had to leave Beowulf in the first place, but so long as they didn't go so far past the line they couldn't claim to have one foot on either side, they'd have pulled the rest of humanity along.

And then just invest gobs of money in marketing.

As you said, it might have taken longer. Or maybe not, because they could have got the synergistic effects of cooperative research.
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