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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:06 pm

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cthia wrote:But, if ships can't idle in the transit lane, then how do you pull off a mass transit that would shut down the junction?

"Can't" and "Astro control won't let them" are two quite different things. :D

At airports the control tower normally only allows one plane at a time to take off on a runway. But go to an airshow and you'll often see a demonstration team like the Blue Angels make a formation takeoff. Similarly Astro Control isn't going to let ships, during routine operations, idle in the transit lane or get any physically closer than necessary for the transit interval they're enforcing. But in a military emergency the rules change and they'll allow riskier actions like mass transits or minimum possible transit separations; and for those the ships will be much closer together.

Though even for mass transits we don't know that they're idling (aka maintaining constant distance from the wormhole) in the transit lane. For all we know they may get formed up before entering the grav effect and then hold that formation while they move down the departure lane until they transit.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:18 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:But, if ships can't idle in the transit lane, then how do you pull off a mass transit that would shut down the junction?

"Can't" and "Astro control won't let them" are two quite different things. :D

At airports the control tower normally only allows one plane at a time to take off on a runway. But go to an airshow and you'll often see a demonstration team like the Blue Angels make a formation takeoff. Similarly Astro Control isn't going to let ships, during routine operations, idle in the transit lane or get any physically closer than necessary for the transit interval they're enforcing. But in a military emergency the rules change and they'll allow riskier actions like mass transits or minimum possible transit separations; and for those the ships will be much closer together.

Though even for mass transits we don't know that they're idling (aka maintaining constant distance from the wormhole) in the transit lane. For all we know they may get formed up before entering the grav effect and then hold that formation while they move down the departure lane until they transit.

Intuitively that doesn't sound correct for a mass transit. Each ship maintains enough separation that when each crosses the transit threshold enough time would pass between each transit to be a separate yet quite distinct transit; not at all one mass transit. It seems the first ships would have to hold station in the transit lane until all ships form up. Remember, per your own words, transits happen in less than microseconds, instantly.

As a result, I always imagined ships forming up together inside the transit lane with sails deployed. Sails deployed would be like holding your foot on the gas pedal and the brake simultaneously, spinning your wheels. Then letting your foot off of the accelerator - represented by either initiating the hypergenerator or whatever - then transiting.

Since wedges aren't aloud, they can really be packed in like sardines.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:10 am

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kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:
So we assume they mount one for defense. But the moment one would be raised, that LD is 100% localized on everyone's grav sensors. So using one is either a death sentence or a declaration that you believe you can take all comers.

Yup. Or that you can break out and hide.

Based on the example of the RMN being confident that their 12 ton fort being able to take on several dozen SD(P) perhaps they can take on everyone and win.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the time between salvos by a pod vessel can be several minutes. You can produce a very large uncertainty zone in that time. And you will need a very high density attack to defeat something that can take on and win against several dozen SD(P).

Missile sensors are stupid and low resolution so if the the ship can’t see it it probably can’t hit it except by chance. And that’s what PDLCs and CM pods are for.

That's the same thing I was thinking. I remember being shocked to learn that a fort has the firepower of several SDs. That is why I say you cannot let something the size of an LD tip-toe thru the tulips into your back yard. Consider what a single fort could do if it could get as close as an LD. And remember, the LD will be seeding the area with surprises like a spider spinning webs that snare. When the fireworks starts, the heat is on.

The uncertainty zone you speak of reminds me of the game played by Megan Petersen. She first seeded the area with the same delayed surprises I posit the LD will use with their pods of gtorps. And do recall the missile I suggested that may be possible for a ship that is so close it can smell your fear ...

In the ? thread, I posit traditional missiles that spend their wad quickly attaining insane velocities since distance from target is small.

And, when the fun begins, the GA will not be looking for the LD to be right inside their pajamas with them. They'll be focusing on an area of space much further out.

IOW, the LD can seed the area with surprises wreaking havoc first, before announcing itself to a softened foe.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Theemile   » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:37 am

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cthia wrote:That's the same thing I was thinking. I remember being shocked to learn that a fort has the firepower of several SDs. That is why I say you cannot let something the size of an LD tip-toe thru the tulips into your back yard. Consider what a single fort could do if it could get as close as an LD. And remember, the LD will be seeding the area with surprises like a spider spinning webs that snare. When the fireworks starts, the heat is on.

The uncertainty zone you speak of reminds me of the game played by Megan Petersen. She first seeded the area with the same delayed surprises I posit the LD will use with their pods of gtorps. And do recall the missile I suggested that may be possible for a ship that is so close it can smell your fear ...

In the ? thread, I posit traditional missiles that spend their wad quickly attaining insane velocities since distance from target is small.

And, when the fun begins, the GA will not be looking for the LD to be right inside their pajamas with them. They'll be focusing on an area of space much further out.

IOW, the LD can seed the area with surprises wreaking havoc first, before announcing itself to a softened foe.


Gtorps are not pod fired, they are tube fired. The pods are for Cataphracts. Gtorps are too large to fit in pods.

Also, LD have more mass restrictions than forts do. The spider seems to be more massive than a wedge drive and LDs also have hyper systems, which forts do not. Forts can also be built with little concern with long term deployment requirements (they may only have 1 week of hydrogen fuel and food onboard and no hydroponics bays), while LDs have to be built with these factors in mind. It might not seem like much, but it adds up. DW once said Traditional SDs dedicated 55-65% of their mass to war fighting, Forts are probably in the 75-85% category. LDs probably are closer to traditional SDs in their mass fraction.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:27 am

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cthia wrote:That's the same thing I was thinking. I remember being shocked to learn that a fort has the firepower of several SDs. That is why I say you cannot let something the size of an LD tip-toe thru the tulips into your back yard. Consider what a single fort could do if it could get as close as an LD. And remember, the LD will be seeding the area with surprises like a spider spinning webs that snare. When the fireworks starts, the heat is on.
To expand on what Theemile said, the reason that forts can devote a significantly higher percentage of their mass to warfighting is because:
* it has a much more spherical hull, since it doesn't need to conform to the tapered spider shape imposed by alpha nodes or by the triple skegged triangular shape imposed by the spider drive. That gives it more area to mount missile tubes, point defense, ECM hardware, spare decoys, etc.

* it can devote far less volume to propulsion. No need for the mass and volume intensive alpha nodes necessary for wormhole transit or use of grav wave; it can maneuver (when it must) on a single ring of beta nodes. And spider drives seem even more mass and volume intensive since its not 4 rings encircling the diameter of the hull, but 3 rows of massive projectors running the entire length of the hull.

* it doesn't need to carry a hyper generator so that gives it more internal volume for all the weapons and equipement.

* it normally fights inside a bubble sidewall, meaning there are no vulnerable angles where luck, or maneuvering skill, could grant the enemy or their missiles a shot at the chinks in its defenses. So it should be far less subject to "golden BBs" (Though to be fair this bubble sidewall generator is apparently going to be taking up quite a fair bit of the extra volume the fort has thanks to its hullform and lack of hyper generator.

(And of course, on top of that a modern RMN fort is something like 50% larger than their SD(P)s - so nastier ton for ton, as well as way more tons)

A Lenny Det won't have most of those advantages. It may not have Alpha nodes, but as mentioned Spider Drive seems even more mass and volume intensive. Also, RFC's indication that they can transit wormholes might mean they might have spiders + alpha nodes; which is worst of both worlds in terms of mass and volume devoted to propulsion. Their hull form is, if anything, even less efficient than an SDs - especially since they need to mount weapons on all three "broadsides" instead of the SDs two only. (Though that does mean if they get caught at energy range in the middle of a hostile force they can at least fire in more directions than an SD, but fewer than a fort -- OTOH unlike the SD they don't have any sides from which they're immune to damage) Unlike the forts they still need to carry a hyper generator. And they may well also carry the huge generator for a bubble sidewall (which at least gives them the same all round protection as the fort -- at the apparent cost of being equally unable to maneuver while so protected)

All that seems to make it at least as likely that, ton for ton, they'll be less deadly in open combat than an SD - though they might edge out many SDs on an absolute basis simply due to all their extra tons. (And their stealth abilities can be a significant force multiplier all their own - as long as they're not forced into an open slugging match)
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:36 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:"Can't" and "Astro control won't let them" are two quite different things. :D

At airports the control tower normally only allows one plane at a time to take off on a runway. But go to an airshow and you'll often see a demonstration team like the Blue Angels make a formation takeoff. Similarly Astro Control isn't going to let ships, during routine operations, idle in the transit lane or get any physically closer than necessary for the transit interval they're enforcing. But in a military emergency the rules change and they'll allow riskier actions like mass transits or minimum possible transit separations; and for those the ships will be much closer together.

Though even for mass transits we don't know that they're idling (aka maintaining constant distance from the wormhole) in the transit lane. For all we know they may get formed up before entering the grav effect and then hold that formation while they move down the departure lane until they transit.

Intuitively that doesn't sound correct for a mass transit. Each ship maintains enough separation that when each crosses the transit threshold enough time would pass between each transit to be a separate yet quite distinct transit; not at all one mass transit. It seems the first ships would have to hold station in the transit lane until all ships form up. Remember, per your own words, transits happen in less than microseconds, instantly.

As a result, I always imagined ships forming up together inside the transit lane with sails deployed. Sails deployed would be like holding your foot on the gas pedal and the brake simultaneously, spinning your wheels. Then letting your foot off of the accelerator - represented by either initiating the hypergenerator or whatever - then transiting.

Since wedges aren't aloud, they can really be packed in like sardines.

Well not that packed. The warship's sails apparently stick out wider than its wedge; though unlike the basically square planes of the wedge it does extend ahead or astern of the ship.

HMS Fearless, from OBS, was a Courageous-class CL and I've got in my notes that her wedge was only 95 km across (so 47.5 km out from the centerline); but chapter 5 of OBS says her forward sail was a "circular disk of focused gravitation that extended for over three hundred kilometers in every direction from the cruiser's hull" so it seems to stick out about 6.3x further from the hull. That's going to make it interesting to stack.

But maybe they do idle at the transition point - we don't know.

(I don't know that the pros or cons might be, for a fleet making the rare simultaneous transit, to hold on the transit point while everybody slots into position compared to coming into formation before entering the transit lane and them maintaining a steady formation advance to the transit point)

My main point was that, while idling should be possible on a technical level, it's normally forbidden by Astro Control procedure; so the proposed question about how freighters could handle grav turbulences while idling in the transit lane awaiting their turn wouldn't apply. Not because they are incapable - but because Astro control won't clear them to even approach the transit lane until they can advance right down it to transit.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:43 pm

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Theemile wrote:Gtorps are not pod fired, they are tube fired. The pods are for Cataphracts. Gtorps are too large to fit in pods.


I thought they were too big for tubes too. It sounded like they were bay-launched instead: open the pod bay doors and kick them out. Whether the door is at the rear (or front) like an SD(P) or whether it's a sideways door like on a freighter, it's not important.

The MAlign will be trying to shrink their torpedoes over time, so this may not matter, though.

PS: did we have a character called Hal who couldn't/wouldn't open the pod bay doors?
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:HMS Fearless, from OBS, was a Courageous-class CL and I've got in my notes that her wedge was only 95 km across (so 47.5 km out from the centerline); but chapter 5 of OBS says her forward sail was a "circular disk of focused gravitation that extended for over three hundred kilometers in every direction from the cruiser's hull" so it seems to stick out about 6.3x further from the hull. That's going to make it interesting to stack.

But maybe they do idle at the transition point - we don't know.

(I don't know that the pros or cons might be, for a fleet making the rare simultaneous transit, to hold on the transit point while everybody slots into position compared to coming into formation before entering the transit lane and them maintaining a steady formation advance to the transit point)


The sails are indeed huge, 200 to 300 km. I thought it was diameter, but our notes say "in every direction" which implies radius. However, they are perpendicular to the ship's longitudinal axis, instead of parallel. So you can pack a lot of ships back to back in the outbound lane.

If that lane is 20000 km long (and it seems it is longer) and each ship is separated from the next by 200 km for safety, that's 100 ships that can fit. But the ship itself is less than 1.5 km long (after the Great Ship Resizing) so you could pack them even more tightly if needed. It wouldn't for SDs, since you can only get about 35 of them through in a mass transit, but suppose they have to be in the same 10% height of the cylinder so the transit actually takes place.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:46 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
If that lane is 20000 km long (and it seems it is longer) and each ship is separated from the next by 200 km for safety, that's 100 ships that can fit. But the ship itself is less than 1.5 km long (after the Great Ship Resizing) so you could pack them even more tightly if needed. It wouldn't for SDs, since you can only get about 35 of them through in a mass transit, but suppose they have to be in the same 10% height of the cylinder so the transit actually takes place.

True, but for a mass transit they all have to be in roughly the same place.

Not that David has expressed with in any detail as to how big the WH entry point is. It clearly isn't a 1 km radius, but is it 5km, 150 km or 500 km?
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:51 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:HMS Fearless, from OBS, was a Courageous-class CL and I've got in my notes that her wedge was only 95 km across (so 47.5 km out from the centerline); but chapter 5 of OBS says her forward sail was a "circular disk of focused gravitation that extended for over three hundred kilometers in every direction from the cruiser's hull" so it seems to stick out about 6.3x further from the hull. That's going to make it interesting to stack.

But maybe they do idle at the transition point - we don't know.

(I don't know that the pros or cons might be, for a fleet making the rare simultaneous transit, to hold on the transit point while everybody slots into position compared to coming into formation before entering the transit lane and them maintaining a steady formation advance to the transit point)


The sails are indeed huge, 200 to 300 km. I thought it was diameter, but our notes say "in every direction" which implies radius. However, they are perpendicular to the ship's longitudinal axis, instead of parallel. So you can pack a lot of ships back to back in the outbound lane.

If that lane is 20000 km long (and it seems it is longer) and each ship is separated from the next by 200 km for safety, that's 100 ships that can fit. But the ship itself is less than 1.5 km long (after the Great Ship Resizing) so you could pack them even more tightly if needed. It wouldn't for SDs, since you can only get about 35 of them through in a mass transit, but suppose they have to be in the same 10% height of the cylinder so the transit actually takes place.

I must admit that I was assuming there is a big difference between wedge fratricide and "sail fratricide?" But I could be wrong. IOW, since there would be so much more fear of one, there would also be more of a built-in precaution.

The baggage I carry into this discussion is what Honor is actually asking of her crew when she orders them to "Get those ships in closer!" That might make some people nervous. Especially when the RMN was having a high turnover rate.

"How well can you drive this thing?" LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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