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Wormhole Assault: MA Style

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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:04 pm

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cthia wrote:Passive parallel detectors can't operate in series to increase their detection range.


What do you mean by operating in series? That just evokes the image of one detector behind the other, staring at the butt of the one ahead of it...

Anyway, parallel detectors can still detect stuff. All of them observing the same, wide expanse of space. Yes, they can't see what isn't there, but the argument is that there is something there, even if it is below the threshold of detection of any one of them.

For each of them, the detection is indistinguishable from noise. But all of them, added up together, present a detection above the threshold, distinguishable from noise. That's because noise, by its nature, averages out, but the detection won't.

The nature of the detection I don't know. We're ruling out detection from the leaky reactor, fine. How about the thermal signature? How about reflection of sunlight? How about disturbance of the solar wind it is passing through? How about occlusion of background objects?

I said that unless it is as inert as a rock, it will have betraying emissions. We were discussing reactor, but this applies to thermal as well. And even rocks have thermal profiles. If you couple the thermal footprint of the object with the other potential detections, it might be possible to say it is not a rock. Though pretending to be a rock is not a good idea either, since every rock in the inner system is known.

I'm not saying that Manticore has this detection capability. I'm simply saying it's theoretically possible.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:53 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Ah, good point on the Ghost Riders.

But they and the Silver Bullets don't get closer than about 100,000 km. There's no need to get to 1 km.

The Silver Bullet is the biggest threat here, since it can last for weeks, it's very stealthy, and it is a weapons platform, unlike the GRs. Yes, it did take a long time to locate the Mycroft platforms, but the GA needs to worry about the next improvement on that when it doesn't need weeks to locate a target. And of course they have plenty of targets that can't evade and/or are pretty obvious.

They get close enough to read the name written on the hull. IIRC, about 10,000 km or closer.
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:31 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Passive parallel detectors can't operate in series to increase their detection range.


What do you mean by operating in series? That just evokes the image of one detector behind the other, staring at the butt of the one ahead of it...

Anyway, parallel detectors can still detect stuff. All of them observing the same, wide expanse of space. Yes, they can't see what isn't there, but the argument is that there is something there, even if it is below the threshold of detection of any one of them.

For each of them, the detection is indistinguishable from noise. But all of them, added up together, present a detection above the threshold, distinguishable from noise. That's because noise, by its nature, averages out, but the detection won't.

The nature of the detection I don't know. We're ruling out detection from the leaky reactor, fine. How about the thermal signature? How about reflection of sunlight? How about disturbance of the solar wind it is passing through? How about occlusion of background objects?

I said that unless it is as inert as a rock, it will have betraying emissions. We were discussing reactor, but this applies to thermal as well. And even rocks have thermal profiles. If you couple the thermal footprint of the object with the other potential detections, it might be possible to say it is not a rock. Though pretending to be a rock is not a good idea either, since every rock in the inner system is known.

I'm not saying that Manticore has this detection capability. I'm simply saying it's theoretically possible.

The image of operating in series that that evokes in your mind is good enough, and nonsensical, but that is my point. A lot of technology has benefited from operating in series to increase effectiveness and efficiency, from electronics to engines, and even telescopes, but in our application it isn't possible, yet you continue to insist on "adding them up."

Now, if they were active detectors, they could certainly operate in tandem to increase detection by directing some sort of wide area beam to highlight a specific area. Those intersecting beams could tell the story.

Thermal signatures, solar wind and reflection of sunlight seem to be dealt with by the author. Certainly nobody has ever detected any thermal signatures and we have lots of tech in the HV that definitely should be running quite hot. Heck, ballistic launches are hard to keep track of when you know their existence AND path, even though radar is being used there. But occlusion? Well that's a long shot in the dark.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Wormhole Assault: MA Style
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:21 pm

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cthia wrote:The image of operating in series that that evokes in your mind is good enough, and nonsensical, but that is my point. A lot of technology has benefited from operating in series to increase effectiveness and efficiency, from electronics to engines, and even telescopes, but in our application it isn't possible, yet you continue to insist on "adding them up."


Yes, adding them up in parallel. That is a proven way of increasing detection against noise for all types of waves, both sound and electromagnetic. All the modern WiFi specifications are "MIMO:" multiple input, multiple output. Our radar telescopes are multiple receiver antennae -- you must have seen quite a few images of multiple parabolic dishes all pointing in the same direction. In fact, single-dish installations like the Arecibo telescope (RIP) were the exception, not the rule. See [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-long-baseline_interferometry]the Wikpedia article[/i] on Very long baseline interferometry (and the article has a picture of multiple-dish antenna receivers as well as the SMBH at the centre of M87).

Now, if they were active detectors, they could certainly operate in tandem to increase detection by directing some sort of wide area beam to highlight a specific area. Those intersecting beams could tell the story.


The only astronomical telescope we had that was active was Arecibo. It was the only installation that was capable of doing radar astronomy. All the other ones can do radio astronomy.

Thermal signatures, solar wind and reflection of sunlight seem to be dealt with by the author. Certainly nobody has ever detected any thermal signatures and we have lots of tech in the HV that definitely should be running quite hot. Heck, ballistic launches are hard to keep track of when you know their existence AND path, even though radar is being used there. But occlusion? Well that's a long shot in the dark.


I agree occlusion is unlikely, unless it's very close by in which case the angle it blocks is non-negligible.

In any case, my point was that no stealth is perfect. There are many ways to minimise the leakage, like a heat sink to keep your thermal profile indistinguishable from the background. But there's nothing that is perfect.

Not even Star Trek's phase cloaks. Those just make no sense: you can pass through things (including weapons fire?) but you can see the outside universe? That means you're interacting with the photons, which in turn means that there is a way to detect your presence.

And just to reiterate: I don't think it's likely that Manticore has anywhere near this level of ability to detect. But I also don't think the MAlign stealth is that good either. There'll be a weakness that David will reveal in due time.
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