Wormhole Assault: MA Style

cthia wrote:Is it a given the Spider doesn't have sails? If it isn't, then the Spider may be able to harness power in addition to the sails. The RMN has repeatedly proven what a bloated power budget can do for combat. ECM for the Ghost Rider program. Energy weapons for LACs. I was thinking that if the Spider can gain a significant advantage in hyper, then it could usher in a new age of hyper combat on its own.

We don't know whether or not a given Spider ship has sails. RFC implied that Lenny Dets would be able to use wormholes; which implies that quite possibly they do have sails.

One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it a given the Spider doesn't have sails? If it isn't, then the Spider may be able to harness power in addition to the sails. The RMN has repeatedly proven what a bloated power budget can do for combat. ECM for the Ghost Rider program. Energy weapons for LACs. I was thinking that if the Spider can gain a significant advantage in hyper, then it could usher in a new age of hyper combat on its own.

We don't know whether or not a given Spider ship has sails. RFC implied that Lenny Dets would be able to use wormholes; which implies that quite possibly they do have sails.

One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

I remember reading somewhere else that missiles are useless in hyper, which is why I brought up the notion of a Spider possibly generating an edge in an energy engagement.

I was also contemplating a Spider using some of that surplus energy for ECM, in addition to its stealth in hyper.* I didn't count on sails killing it's stealth, and there is no way to know whether the author will see fit to make the Spider's stealth function in hyper, if it isn't actually a fortunate byproduct of its design.

*We haven't seen ECM that affects energy weapons, or the targeting of energy weapons.

Jonathan_S wrote:As you can see, the power generated by the sail isn't needed in addition to the output of its fusion plant(s); it can be used instead of its fusion plant(s); allowing for very cost effective cruises of extreme distances.

(Though I seem to recall it mentioned elsewhere that a warship would normally keep at least one fusion reactor active; even when under sail, for redundancy and in case of emergencies)

Makes sense to me, thanks. Although, it seems intuitive that one reactor would always remain active. It takes a lot of time to power up a reactor from a cold start. Too much time to be pragmatic even from a warm start in a combat situation. In case a ship drops out of hyper under attack, it needs to be combat ready.

cthia wrote:I remember reading somewhere else that missiles are useless in hyper, which is why I brought up the notion of a Spider possibly generating an edge in an energy engagement.

Missiles can be used in hyperspace. They cannot be used in grav waves though.

Most travel is done in grav waves because it's free energy thanks to the magic of plot. But when a ship is moving between grav waves missiles are perfectly fine to use.

Jonathan_S wrote:
One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

It certainly would be interesting if one side could deploy a spherical sidewall that was fortress class, now wouldn’t it?

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

It certainly would be interesting if one side could deploy a spherical sidewall that was fortress class, now wouldn’t it?

Arachnophobia just got much more interesting.

cthia wrote:I have always assumed that the MA was able to detect the Spider because it knew where and what to look for, with its own tech. And, it knew it was out there.

Not having maps of the WH, I am not certain what ranges a nest would imply. Also, "sneaking in" to a nest can be achieved slowly, in an area that shouldn't be looking for an enemy warship to be. Once in place the drive can be shut down

Did I misspeak once again here? Would a Spider be able to loiter indefinitely without it's drive? Station keeping for an indefinite amount of time would burn thru fuel like crazy.

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

It certainly would be interesting if one side could deploy a spherical sidewall that was fortress class, now wouldn’t it?

Yep. That'd be a decisive combat advantage within a grav wave.


Of course the other side would probably just attempt to decline combat by making crash dive down out of the grav wave (whether to a lower hyper band where it didn't exist; or all the way down to n-space) - and even if the bubble shield equipped ship followed them getting out of the 'wave would at least let the other ships bring up wedge and sidewalls and utilize their missiles (largely negating the advantage of the bubble sidewall).

Though if you timed raising it perfectly you could presumably surprise opponents with it at least a few times before someone got away and spread the word about your ships carrying bubble walls. And even once it's known you might get extra lucky an catch them in a situation where they need to stick around and fight (such as to buy a convoy time to escape).



Of course all of this is assuming you can even pull of a mid 'wave intercept in the first place; as that's a fantastically difficult thing to achieve.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:As you can see, the power generated by the sail isn't needed in addition to the output of its fusion plant(s); it can be used instead of its fusion plant(s); allowing for very cost effective cruises of extreme distances.

(Though I seem to recall it mentioned elsewhere that a warship would normally keep at least one fusion reactor active; even when under sail, for redundancy and in case of emergencies)

Makes sense to me, thanks. Although, it seems intuitive that one reactor would always remain active. It takes a lot of time to power up a reactor from a cold start. Too much time to be pragmatic even from a warm start in a combat situation. In case a ship drops out of hyper under attack, it needs to be combat ready.

Yep, a warship commander (or the Admiralty when laying down operating procedures) has to think about the possibility a ship might need to crash dive out of the 'wave unexpectedly due to hostiles appearing; and so knows it can't rely on transit schedule to determine when the reactor will next be needed. Best to have it ready to go in case it's needed unexpectely.

But freighters, especially ones operating in safe area in time of peace, are less likely to worry about that and so will sometimes shut down the reactor entirely when they know they're in a long segment of sailing. Then, based on their itinerary, they'll know when to spin it back up to be ready to provide power the instant their course takes them out of the wave or out of hyper entirely. (As sails stop providing power once out of a wave [or terminus lane], since outside that area they've no long got that eddy to siphon from) [1]



[1] Incidentally, the Wiki excerpt you quoted a bunch of posts back conflated all of hyper with grav waves; claiming the sail can "provide enough power to essentially run the entire ship during its time in hyperspace". But that statement only applies while within a grav wave within hyperspace; and the majority of hyperspace is the "rifts" where no grav waves exist. (Though ships prefer to stick to the 'waves where possible)

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
One thing we do know is that while using sails they aren't stealthy; as the sails themselves will show up on grav sensors from far beyond energy range; even in the relatively crappy sensor conditions of hyper. (And if you're in an environment where you can use sails then your missiles, and presumably your graser torps, can't function - so combat will be at energy range.

It certainly would be interesting if one side could deploy a spherical sidewall that was fortress class, now wouldn’t it?

Jonathan_S wrote:Yep. That'd be a decisive combat advantage within a grav wave.


Of course the other side would probably just attempt to decline combat by making crash dive down out of the grav wave (whether to a lower hyper band where it didn't exist; or all the way down to n-space) - and even if the bubble shield equipped ship followed them getting out of the 'wave would at least let the other ships bring up wedge and sidewalls and utilize their missiles (largely negating the advantage of the bubble sidewall).

Though if you timed raising it perfectly you could presumably surprise opponents with it at least a few times before someone got away and spread the word about your ships carrying bubble walls. And even once it's known you might get extra lucky an catch them in a situation where they need to stick around and fight (such as to buy a convoy time to escape).



Of course all of this is assuming you can even pull of a mid 'wave intercept in the first place; as that's a fantastically difficult thing to achieve.

However, if a Spider can somehow generate a spherical sidewall, then a Spider in a nest would almost be impervious - safe from both missiles and energy weapons. And invisible to boot.

Sidewalls would allow an LD to truly mimic both the long range and short range mission capability of the old subs, and their stealth would allow them to withdraw from the short range engagements. Hence, a lone LD could then extricate itself out of a nest once it pounces.

Sidewalls blunt attacks they are not, even fortress class, impenetrable. only Impeller wedges are impenetrable.

Hit the Spider with the fortress sidewall, assuming that they are willing to make the sacrifices to mount one, with enough firepower, be it laser heads, contact nukes, or grasers SOME of that energy is getting through. The bleed through energy will likely be enough to cause some serious damage.

Just as a note, i believe that the resident Mad Wizard (who sprints for a certain edible salad plant) noted that should a Spidercraft generate a spherical sidewall, the drive would not be able to work through the shield, thus rendering it effectively unable to maneuver.
I don't remember where the thread it was discussed in was, but the idea of multiple and potentially-overlapping or elongated oval-shaped buckler-type shields (bow, stern and between the Drive-areas on each of the three sides) was put forwards on the basis that even relatively small shields are far better than none at all.