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AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV

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AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:35 am

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It is easy to destroy a planet's entire navy. Destroy a CLAC and orphan its LACs. Destroy a planet and orphan its navy.



It occurred to me in the "?" thread that some jealous or spiteful or simply insane entity could effect an EE strike on the MBS with the sole purpose of making its planets unlivable. Early on in the history of the Honorverse, the thinking could have been that the MWJ might have been abandoned, or at least poorly supported, if the RMN had been orphaned.

At any rate, what would be the aftermath of the most devastating EE strike? What if most of the population on both Manticore and Sphinx were totally destroyed? What would become of the dispensation of the MWJ?

What would transpire if Manticore was left totally uninhabitable but Sphinx and Gryphon survived? Or any other combination of barely unimaginable unholy horror?

Like a totally sterilized MBS.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by Chardt   » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:12 am

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cthia wrote:At any rate, what would be the aftermath of the most devastating EE strike? What if most of the population on both Manticore and Sphinx were totally destroyed? What would become of the dispensation of the MWJ?


Leaving aside the human aspect of such a catastrophe, I submit the following:
- Within the MBS, we have people living on three planets, (soon agein depending on time) various space stations orbiting these planets, space stations and habitats in the asteroid belt, and the various installations (warehouses and fortresses) around the actual MWJ. A lot of dispersed stuff to all take out.
- Manticore is now much more than the MBS. Not only are the people in all those other parts of the Empire citizens, but there are a lot of actual inhabitants of the MBS currently in those other parts and with the fleet. Even if no-one survived an attack on the MBS, those other Manticorans would resettle it ASAP.
- And of course the whole GA would go after the attacker.

So Manticore would survive one way or another, and the MWJ would remain property of the Star Empire of Manticore.
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:29 am

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Chardt wrote:Leaving aside the human aspect of such a catastrophe, I submit the following:
- Within the MBS, we have people living on three planets, (soon agein depending on time) various space stations orbiting these planets, space stations and habitats in the asteroid belt, and the various installations (warehouses and fortresses) around the actual MWJ. A lot of dispersed stuff to all take out.
- Manticore is now much more than the MBS. Not only are the people in all those other parts of the Empire citizens, but there are a lot of actual inhabitants of the MBS currently in those other parts and with the fleet. Even if no-one survived an attack on the MBS, those other Manticorans would resettle it ASAP.
- And of course the whole GA would go after the attacker.

So Manticore would survive one way or another, and the MWJ would remain property of the Star Empire of Manticore.


Of course, if the MBS planets are rendered uninhabitable, then resettling cannot occur. How long that would take, we simply don't know. Not that it should be a problem: technology in the Honorverse should be plenty to support human space habitats with full comfort. It's a choice by the author not to dwell on those, since it seems habitable planets are plentiful (and highly correlated with wormhole termini).

The RMN itself would not be left orphan. As Chardt says, there's more to the empire than the MBS, so it could be officially based on Trevor's Star and Basilisk, for example, with a very long-term lease of the shipyards and docks offered by the Republic of Beowulf (Beowulf-Hypatia).

Economically, the SEM would take a huge downturn because the MWHJ is not the sole or even the majority source of funds to the empire's economy. The planet-based activities would simply stop, not to mention the loss of a highly-skilled population. But since the MWHJ wouldn't be lost and it is likely to be responsible for the largest chunk of the SEM's balance of trade, the SEM could afford to rebuild.

Though it's also possible that such a catastrophe causes the SEM to seek closer ties with the Republics of Haven and Beowulf, forming a tighter bond than the confederation/union that was hinted at the last chapter of UH. The loss of the second most advanced planet and the most advanced system in all of them would still be felt, but the impact would be mitigated. And there's absolutely no one who could hold a candle to the united RMN and RHN.
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:18 pm

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It all depends on when this happens Unless the Aligment has a suitable proxy to step in and "rescue" the survivors.

You come along far enough in the time-line and OFS/SLN would show up and take possession (in the most compassionate, legal (for them) and profitable way while "assisting" the survivors. Those poor people could not possibly be able to both defend & operate the Junction while attempting to rebuild some sort of civilization on their devistated world and the Junction would be "reasonable" compensation to the League and OFS for doing that. Ofcourse OFS would move in and take over the government of the planets and any surviving orbital habitats...and insist that any surviving RMN be stood down to concerntrate on assisting with the very long term recovery work with their fellow Protectorate citizens.

If The Alignment still has an Axelrod lurning about they would get their first and the politicians in the League would -after much praise of the selfless and herculean efforts of Axelrod and it's partners (and large contributions to various politician and bureaucrat personal (and very quiet) penson funds, Alexrod will be granted ownership of the Junction as the very least that it deserves for it's massive acts of charity and compassion.

Have I been ready too much about the League and the Aligment? Oh well, waiting for the next book :)
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:32 pm

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cthia wrote:It occurred to me in the "?" thread that some jealous or spiteful or simply insane entity could effect an EE strike on the MBS with the sole purpose of making its planets unlivable. Early on in the history of the Honorverse, the thinking could have been that the MWJ might have been abandoned, or at least poorly supported, if the RMN had been orphaned.

At any rate, what would be the aftermath of the most devastating EE strike? What if most of the population on both Manticore and Sphinx were totally destroyed? What would become of the dispensation of the MWJ?

What would transpire if Manticore was left totally uninhabitable but Sphinx and Gryphon survived? Or any other combination of barely unimaginable unholy horror?

Like a totally sterilized MBS.
Well legally the Junction is far beyond the territorial limits of an inhabited system. Manticore owns it solely because Manticore can put the forces out there to police and defend it (helped of course by the fact that their main yards and system are right next door - but legally that's irrelevant. Nor does it hurt that they've got a presumption of ownership as its discoverers; but as RFC has explained the applicable interstellar law they'd lose that presumption if they didn't back it up by actually maintaining control of the wormhole terminus, or terminii in the Junction's case)

So if we take your hypothetical and Manticore and Sphynx were rendered un uninhabitable today then the rest of the SKM could continue to hold sovereignty over the Junction for as long as Gryphon, San Martin, and Lynx (not to mention whatever orbital and asteroid facilities remain around Manticore-A), with whatever assistance they can draw from the rest of the SEM, can maintain the police and defensive forces around the Junction (so basically indefinitely)


Now if this hypothetical disaster happened far earlier in Manticore's history then legally things would be the same, but with the SKM now just being Gryphon (and any remaining Manticore-A orbital facilities), and lacking the SEM and their close allies of the GA, it'd be much harder for Manticoran forces to hold onto the Junction in the face of anyone who might care to take it away from them.

Though after such an earlier disaster it's quite possible that Beowulf would provide significant assistance and temporary military support to Manticore and the Junction, since it's not in their interests to have someone potentially unfriendly on the other end of their wormhole. Alternatively it's possible that what's left of the SKM would work out a longer term deal with Beowulf possible granting them shared or even sole ownership of the Junction in exchange for disaster relief help and permanent defensive aid.
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by munroburton   » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:59 am

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Yildun is claimed and populated despite having no inhabitable planets and a wormhole junction.

runsforcelery wrote:From a shipping perspective, Yildun is important but not vital. The actual description in Crown may be a little misleading in that respect when it calls the system “a central hub for shipping.” It is a “hub” and its relative proximity to Sol (via Templar) does make it “central,” but it never handled remotely the amount of shipping that a single-terminus star system like Beowulf does because it doesn’t have Beowulf’s “central” location in terms of its physical proximity to the Sol System’s neighbors or to the peripheral arc of hyper bridges dominated by the Manticoran Junction.


I think it's clear that the Manticoran Junction is so vital that a similar space platform-based civilisation would continue to settle the system even if all three planets met the Death Star.
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:25 am

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I agree with Chardt and the overall consensus that life will go on. I'm just not so sure in what capacity. I just don't think it will be business as usual. Obviously it wouldn't.

For instance, the MWJ will no longer be a part of the "Home" system. Yet the junction will have to continue to represent the largest deployment of RMN forces. Effectively two "Home Fleet's" would have to be effectively maintained. If either of the planets in the MBS survived and was resettled with survivors then that would become the Home system in need of a substantial Home Fleet. Yet the same support for the junction would have to be maintained. Overall logistics would change quite a bit.

Also, I doubt the Manticoran government itself would resettle in habitats. Placing the Queen in a habitat is asking for a bombardment.

Yet, how would that change the structure of politics if a lot of the Lords, royalty and the government survived yet relocated on Gryphon or Sphinx? How would all of the privileges of "Landing's" first settlers transfer when the city of Landing has been destroyed? Supporting a Monarchy by extension might not be the same for the citizens of Gryphon or Sphinx as hosting them - or the seat of the government - on planet.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: AFTERMATH of the most devastating EEV
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:15 am

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Yildun is a privately held system, owned by Technodyne. There may be no habitable planets but it is a manufacturing hub and, we are told, all sorts of habitats and fabrication facilities. Mostly we see it as a major if not the major supplyer of SLN military ships, weapons and other gear. They will also be selling ships to anybody who will pay for them. You have to suspect that the SLN would be taking new ships out on Builders Trials and that the SLN probably maintains some of the security in the ares.
It also builds merchant and other shipping.
Given what they do and where they are, Technodyne probably has a substantial security fleet of it's own. It's a Transtellar but it does own the system.

The other place we have seen this was with Grendalsbane being operated as a remote yard for Manticore in a resource rich system with no habitable planets. Obviously that was blasted by Haven at the reopening of the war which but it was only building warships and it certainly sounded like this was not actualy a home to anybody exept perhaps long term employees of the shipbuilding companies.
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