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Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD

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Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD
Post by cstar   » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:32 pm

cstar
Midshipman

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So at the beginning of At All Costs, Admiral Caparelli states that the Alliance has 160 BC(P)s and shortly after states that there are only 6 completed Agamemnons and 6 more under construction. Is that saying that the Graysons and Andermani have 160 BC(P)s in commission, or is it, based on Caparelli's original statement, saying that 160 will be in commission in 18 months from that meeting when the SD(P) are finished?

Relevant quotes below:

“So,” Caparelli said, “looking at every pod-laying waller we can scrape up between us, Grayson, and the Andies, and including all of the Andy SD(P)s currently in commission as fully effective units, we have a total of two hundred and thirty-two. Assuming our construction times hold up, and allowing for working up time, we can have a total of just over four hundred within the next eleven to eighteen months. We can add about a hundred and sixty pod-laying battlecruisers to that total, but they can’t stand in the wall against proper superdreadnoughts. That’s an impressive number, but the Havenites have some pretty impressive numbers of their own.”

“We only have the lead ship of the Nike-class about to commission, and only six of the Agamemnons, but there are six more Agamemnons already in the pipeline.”
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Re: Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:40 pm

Jonathan_S
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cstar wrote:So at the beginning of At All Costs, Admiral Caparelli states that the Alliance has 160 BC(P)s and shortly after states that there are only 6 completed Agamemnons and 6 more under construction. Is that saying that the Graysons and Andermani have 160 BC(P)s in commission, or is it, based on Caparelli's original statement, saying that 160 will be in commission in 18 months from that meeting when the SD(P) are finished?

Relevant quotes below:

“So,” Caparelli said, “looking at every pod-laying waller we can scrape up between us, Grayson, and the Andies, and including all of the Andy SD(P)s currently in commission as fully effective units, we have a total of two hundred and thirty-two. Assuming our construction times hold up, and allowing for working up time, we can have a total of just over four hundred within the next eleven to eighteen months. We can add about a hundred and sixty pod-laying battlecruisers to that total, but they can’t stand in the wall against proper superdreadnoughts. That’s an impressive number, but the Havenites have some pretty impressive numbers of their own.”

“We only have the lead ship of the Nike-class about to commission, and only six of the Agamemnons, but there are six more Agamemnons already in the pipeline.”

Probably that 160 will be in commissions by the end of 18 months.

Though we know the Graysons got started on their BC(P)s earlier than Manticore did both the Agamemnon-class and Courvosier II-class BC(P)s are listed with a 1919 PD in-service date in House of Steel. I wouldn't be surprised in the GSN had 3 or 4 squadrons in service - to the RMN's 1 but I doubt they've got at least 50 already in service. And the IAN probably gave more priority to a BC(P) than either other service as it would be their first podlaying design and in addition to being cheaper and quicker to build it makes sense to get operational feedback, and figure out some mistakes, on those before absolutely finalizing their first SD(P)s. But even so I'd also be surprised if they already had 50+ BC(P)s in service.

So I suspect the alliance might have as many as 40-60 BC(P)s in service, despite the RMN only contributing 6 of those; but that the 160 is what could be ready later - not what is available now. (Otherwise you'd have expected deep raids with an even more extensive BC(P) focus - rather than using relatively few of them with scarce SD(P)s riding herd)
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Re: Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:22 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cstar wrote:So at the beginning of At All Costs, Admiral Caparelli states that the Alliance has 160 BC(P)s and shortly after states that there are only 6 completed Agamemnons and 6 more under construction. Is that saying that the Graysons and Andermani have 160 BC(P)s in commission, or is it, based on Caparelli's original statement, saying that 160 will be in commission in 18 months from that meeting when the SD(P) are finished?

Relevant quotes below:

“So,” Caparelli said, “looking at every pod-laying waller we can scrape up between us, Grayson, and the Andies, and including all of the Andy SD(P)s currently in commission as fully effective units, we have a total of two hundred and thirty-two. Assuming our construction times hold up, and allowing for working up time, we can have a total of just over four hundred within the next eleven to eighteen months. We can add about a hundred and sixty pod-laying battlecruisers to that total, but they can’t stand in the wall against proper superdreadnoughts. That’s an impressive number, but the Havenites have some pretty impressive numbers of their own.”

“We only have the lead ship of the Nike-class about to commission, and only six of the Agamemnons, but there are six more Agamemnons already in the pipeline.”

Probably that 160 will be in commissions by the end of 18 months.

Though we know the Graysons got started on their BC(P)s earlier than Manticore did both the Agamemnon-class and Courvosier II-class BC(P)s are listed with a 1919 PD in-service date in House of Steel. I wouldn't be surprised in the GSN had 3 or 4 squadrons in service - to the RMN's 1 but I doubt they've got at least 50 already in service. And the IAN probably gave more priority to a BC(P) than either other service as it would be their first podlaying design and in addition to being cheaper and quicker to build it makes sense to get operational feedback, and figure out some mistakes, on those before absolutely finalizing their first SD(P)s. But even so I'd also be surprised if they already had 50+ BC(P)s in service.

So I suspect the alliance might have as many as 40-60 BC(P)s in service, despite the RMN only contributing 6 of those; but that the 160 is what could be ready later - not what is available now. (Otherwise you'd have expected deep raids with an even more extensive BC(P) focus - rather than using relatively few of them with scarce SD(P)s riding herd)



While we don't have numbers on the Andermani Blucher class, in May, 1921, the RMN had accepted 85 Agamemnon class BC(p)s with more under construction and the GSN had accepted 40 Courvosier II class BC(p)s, with more also under construction. As mentioned, both classes initially entered service in 1919, giving little time to get 160 in service so quickly prior to that quote.

Oddly, the March 1st 1920 Fleet list is sorta opposed to the Grayson 1919 build start. According to the list, 6 RMN BC(p)s were in service, 40 GSN, and 11 Andermani, for a total of 57. I find it strange that the Graysons would have built 40 all in 1919, but this might indicate that they built all 40 ships in 1 traunche, with a 2nd traunche completing in late 1921, indicating that they might field in the area of 80 BC(p)s (-losses) prior to Oyster Bay.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD
Post by Erls   » Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:23 pm

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Could part of the explanation for Grayson be that while they do have a 1919 build date, that was literally in the first week of 1919 that the first ships commissioned, while Manticore's commissioned at the very end of 1919? With an 18-month build time, that would cover over 1/2 of the time to build a second wave. Grayson could have had 20 completed, 20 more of the first wave completing first half of 2020, with the first half of the second wave coming at the end of 2020 (though not worked up until 2021, so not included on the active list) with the second wave due in 2021.

That also would have put Grayson at 80 BC(P) by 2021, meaning they would account for half of the 160 total. If Manticore was planning on going from 6 to 42, and the Andermani from 11 (?) to 40, the numbers would work out to 160 in 2021.
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Re: Alliance BC(P) Numbers in 1919 PD
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:36 pm

Theemile
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Erls wrote:Could part of the explanation for Grayson be that while they do have a 1919 build date, that was literally in the first week of 1919 that the first ships commissioned, while Manticore's commissioned at the very end of 1919? With an 18-month build time, that would cover over 1/2 of the time to build a second wave. Grayson could have had 20 completed, 20 more of the first wave completing first half of 2020, with the first half of the second wave coming at the end of 2020 (though not worked up until 2021, so not included on the active list) with the second wave due in 2021.

That also would have put Grayson at 80 BC(P) by 2021, meaning they would account for half of the 160 total. If Manticore was planning on going from 6 to 42, and the Andermani from 11 (?) to 40, the numbers would work out to 160 in 2021.


Manticore also had 85 completed by May 1st 1921, with more under construction.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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