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Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options

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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by tlb   » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:48 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I wouldn't think losing a slander case would necessarily wreck all your standing. It'd depend on what the slander was.

In this instance Young would be wrecked by bringing the slander case because otherwise inadmissible evidence would show that he'd acted entirely beyond the pale; and now been caught at it.

But if Young somehow utterly beat all odds and won the slander case I don't think Honor getting hit with some civil penalty for slander would lose all her standing in society. Some standing, temporarily, probably - but it wouldn't be career ending or turn her into a pariah. (Well, her existing enemies would probably harp on it and try to maximize the damage, but still wouldn't ruin her) After all, all that would prove is that in the eyes of the law she knowingly propagated an untruth about someone she despised.

However I do think it would ruin her ability to challenge Young to a dual on those grounds. If she challenged him based on hiring Denver to kill Paul I don't think Young would lose any societaly standing for refusing to give satisfaction over a court had ruled wasn't true. I think he could easily refuse by saying she was incorrect and he had no need to defend such a specious claimed offense. I have to believe that society doesn't shun people who blow off truly frivolous or baseless challenges to a duel.

That doesn't block Honor from dueling him at all, but she'd have to do so over some other insult or offense - something that society would shun Young for failing to face. (And I suspect their previous bad encounters wouldn't meet that standard now - too much time has passed and claiming challenge over the Saganami Island incident, being stabbed in the back of Basilisk, or even his cowardly behavior that got him Court Marshaled, would (correctly) seem like Honor grasping on a pretext to challenge his when her actual complain was the one dismissed in court. So she'd probably need for him to commit some new and fairly egregious offense against her - so all he has to do to avoid her challenge is ignore her)

Okay, you have convinced me. So it is fortunate for Honor's mental health that he chose to cling to his position in society and so was forced to accept her challenge.
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by Fox2!   » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:15 am

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cthia wrote:Woulda Shoulda Coulda


What were some of the options of Pavel Young and Steadholder Burdette?



The final option of both Burdette and Young was to die. Their only choices were the manner of their death, with honor, or as a sniveling coward.

Budette, at least, chose to die facing his enemy, with equal steel in their hands. He did, though, expect to survive his encounter with Honor. Pavel Young had no such expectations when he finally met Honor on the Field of Honor. He fully expected to die there, and decided to take the "base born bitch" who had, in his mind, caused his disgrace and ejection from the RMN, with him. Hence, the decision to shoot at Honor first, while she had her back turned to him. It was only the "Down!" command from her Armsmen, and her instinctual reaction to it, that saved her life, and allowed her to put a 3 cm group of projectiles where Young's heart used to be.
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:45 am

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Burdette definitely shoulda used the courts. Benjamin shat all over "separation of church and state."

Besides, Burdette was simply facing the Doctrine of his Test. And Benjamin was simply using the situation as a fulcrum to illegally leverage his own unlawful powerbase.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:21 am

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BTW, long before my niece and her pitchfork carrying powerbase yielded to the truth in the Ramblings and Musings thread, my niece—very much annoyed with that particular stance—remarked . . .

"(Honor honor) separated Church and State!"

Still LOL.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by tlb   » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:54 am

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cthia wrote:Burdette definitely shoulda used the courts. Benjamin shat all over "separation of church and state."

Besides, Burdette was simply facing the Doctrine of his Test. And Benjamin was simply using the situation as a fulcrum to illegally leverage his own unlawful powerbase.

There is no separation of Church and State in Grayson, but that is not the problem with your statements. Instead the problem is in stating "Benjamin was simply using the situation as a fulcrum to illegally leverage his own unlawful powerbase".

From Flag in Exile, chapter 16:
Prestwick replied with a small, wry grin. "Your Grace, if my predecessors and I intended to establish permanent ministerial control of the government, we made a serious error—as the Court reminded us—in not amending the Constitution." His smile grew a bit wider, and Benjamin returned it tightly, but then Prestwick leaned forward with a more serious air.
"The problem, Your Grace, is that for over a hundred years, precedent said the Protector was the symbolic guarantor of a stable continuity, but that the actual business of running the government was his Council's affair, while the Constitution still said he was the head of government, not just the state." He shrugged. "When you reasserted your authority, you certainly violated that precedent, but the written Constitution—which every Grayson steadholder and military officer is sworn to uphold—gave you every right to do so. We simply never anticipated that you would."


PS. Lord Burdette would have had no chance in court; because of the confession of Edward Julian Martin, that ties him to the deaths of Reverend Hanks, of children and of many others. He could try to twist the trial to the usurpation of the Protector, but that would only be germane as an attempted defense of what he had ordered.
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by Fox2!   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:13 am

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tlb wrote:
PS. Lord Burdette would have had no chance in court; because of the confession of Edward Julian Martin, that ties him to the deaths of Reverend Hanks, of children and of many others. He could try to twist the trial to the usurpation of the Protector, but that would only be germane as an attempted defense of what he had ordered.


After trial, conviction, and sentencing, then what? A "simple execution"? (See Star Trek "Bread and Circuses") A firing squad with gold-plated bullets (or pulser darts)? (He is, after all, a Steadholder) Or the silken noose?
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by tlb   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:51 am

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tlb wrote:PS. Lord Burdette would have had no chance in court; because of the confession of Edward Julian Martin, that ties him to the deaths of Reverend Hanks, of children and of many others. He could try to twist the trial to the usurpation of the Protector, but that would only be germane as an attempted defense of what he had ordered.

Fox2! wrote:After trial, conviction, and sentencing, then what? A "simple execution"? (See Star Trek "Bread and Circuses") A firing squad with gold-plated bullets (or pulser darts)? (He is, after all, a Steadholder) Or the silken noose?

We do not really know; RFC was not explicit about the one Steadholder that we know was executed in Ashes of Victory, chapter 46:
And Mueller's paid for it, too, Honor thought grimly.

The steadholder had been impeached, tried, and condemned to death in barely one week, and sentence had been carried out immediately. There had been no question who'd handed the memory stones to Elizabeth and Cromarty, and his fate had been sealed from the moment the beacon inside Elizabeth's stone had been discovered.
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:33 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Burdette definitely shoulda used the courts. Benjamin shat all over "separation of church and state."

Besides, Burdette was simply facing the Doctrine of his Test. And Benjamin was simply using the situation as a fulcrum to illegally leverage his own unlawful powerbase.

There is no separation of Church and State in Grayson, but that is not the problem with your statements. Instead the problem is in stating "Benjamin was simply using the situation as a fulcrum to illegally leverage his own unlawful powerbase".

-snip-


There MUST - ALWAYS - be a separation of Church and State. Politicians lobby for themselves. True Christians lobby for God. God's laws trump secular laws. This goes double on a devoutly religious planet like Grayson who hasn't, yet, lost its way. It is inherent and implied even if not written in the Constitution because man and his machines - government - will never be clean, pure and perfect.

This reality accounts for one of the main reasons behind President Donald Trump's massive voter base. Trump carries a significant number of Christians who are afraid of the loss of religious freedom first on their list. See the Kentucky clerk who refuses to issue a license to a lesbian couple. See the business which refuses a wedding cake for a gay couple. When religious rights are stampeded, people become angry. Religious freedom is what this country was founded on. It is the First Amendment.

The Democrats were afraid to speak out against LGBTQ rights and a host of other issues, afraid of losing their voter base. That is an example of my previous statement that politicians lobby for themselves and not for God.


Grayson is headed down America's same path which carries it away from its original founding principles. Burdette and Co., - regardless of his shortcomings - see that clearly.


From Flag in Exile, chapter 16:

Prestwick replied with a small, wry grin. "Your Grace, if my predecessors and I intended to establish permanent ministerial control of the government, we made a serious error—as the Court reminded us—in not amending the Constitution." His smile grew a bit wider, and Benjamin returned it tightly, but then Prestwick leaned forward with a more serious air.

"The problem, Your Grace, is that for over a hundred years, precedent said the Protector was the symbolic guarantor of a stable continuity, but that the actual business of running the government was his Council's affair, while the Constitution still said he was the head of government, not just the state." He shrugged. "When you reasserted your authority, you certainly violated that precedent, but the written Constitution—which every Grayson steadholder and military officer is sworn to uphold—gave you every right to do so. We simply never anticipated that you would."

What the Protector violated is the separation of Church and State. The Church's affairs were written in religious stone. The Protector's Champion should, at the very least, have been chosen from a pool of Tester's people. Honor should never have been made Protector's Champion. The possibly criminal manner in which she conducted her first order of business as Protector's Champion validates Burdette's very claims of impropriety. Benjamin criminally used the situation to cross the line when he mixed Church and State, to bolster his powerbase. Even Honor, pure at heart, questioned his motives. Even she knew he was wrong.

tlb wrote:PS. Lord Burdette would have had no chance in court; because of the confession of Edward Julian Martin, that ties him to the deaths of Reverend Hanks, of children and of many others. He could try to twist the trial to the usurpation of the Protector, but that would only be germane as an attempted defense of what he had ordered.

Again, as pointed out on several occasions in the Ramblings and Musings's thread, Burdette admitted guilt only to secular laws in pursuit of the bigger picture to fight what is poisonous to the teachings of Tester. The same as the Kentucky Clerk refusing to dishonor her religious convictions to be party to gay marriages. (What will the American landscape look like in a century with same-sex marriages? Are we on the path to becoming another Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by Duckk   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:44 am

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How many times do we have to tell you to read the books? There is no separation of church and state. From House of Steel:

Because religion and public life are inseparable on Grayson, the Sword is also responsible for upholding the authority of the Church of Humanity Unchained. It is the Sword’s responsibility
to enforce the decisions of the Church if necessary. By extension, the Sword is also responsible for enforcing judicial decisions of the High Court.


The First Elder is also automatically a part of the Protector’s Council, and the judiciary is trained entirely by the Church.

Also, keep real world politics in the Politics forum.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Pavel Young's and Lord Burdette's options
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:12 pm

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Duckk wrote:How many times do we have to tell you to read the books? There is no separation of church and state. From House of Steel:

Because religion and public life are inseparable on Grayson, the Sword is also responsible for upholding the authority of the Church of Humanity Unchained. It is the Sword’s responsibility
to enforce the decisions of the Church if necessary. By extension, the Sword is also responsible for enforcing judicial decisions of the High Court.


The First Elder is also automatically a part of the Protector’s Council, and the judiciary is trained entirely by the Church.

Also, keep real world politics in the Politics forum.


sigh

I READ the books Duckk. I agree I need to reread the entire series. A reread is NOT the same as a first read. At any rate, it does NOT violate ALL of my notions. I accepted that I made an error in the timeline upstream. Because I am human. Most everyone else has made mistakes in the timeline as well, even while they have read the series upteen times. So, however you are feeling that if I read the series the same number of times as the average fan, will, or should, excuse me from being human like everyone else is beyond me. I'll consider the source and catalogue your "usual" in the same folder.

Now that we got that out of the way, I shall ask you, as I have asked others. Please read my posts in their entirety before drawing your sidearm. I digested that notion when tlb pointed it out. BUT!

And again . . .

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN IMPLIED AND INHERENT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Even on Grayson.

The State acts on Caesar's behalf . . .

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."


When the Protector becomes corrupt. He is Caesar. Are you really suggesting the Protector has the power to vanquish one's religious beliefs? The Protector is NOT Tester.

Grayson will NEVER forgo the Doctrine of the Test - or the Doctrines of the Tester - for the Doctrines of the Protector.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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