Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Why were they so foolish?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:53 pm

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

Re: the DB and timings...

Rather than snipping, I thought it more efficient to just type my thoughts... here goes. As we've been told, sensors can pick up the grav signatures of the transition to n-space that are FTL. So even if the SLN dispatch boat is half-blind in terms of the "space sphere", they'd have enough info to focus whatever sensors in the right general direction to detect Filereta's arrival, presumably within moments of the SKM detecting the hyper footprint of so many big ships.

Granted, the DB commander ought to have been a little suspicious when they suddenly were basically given permission to fulfill their mission and trigger Tsang's whatever. Where Tsang and the planner's arrogance shows up is that the DB wasn't ordered / didn't bring at least a limited tactical survey with them. Then again, in the Honorverse as written, we know what happens to alarmist officers because of what happened at New Tuscany, no? AKA don't tell the admiral what he or she doesn't want to hear.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:42 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

SharkHunter wrote:Re: the DB and timings...

Rather than snipping, I thought it more efficient to just type my thoughts... here goes. As we've been told, sensors can pick up the grav signatures of the transition to n-space that are FTL. So even if the SLN dispatch boat is half-blind in terms of the "space sphere", they'd have enough info to focus whatever sensors in the right general direction to detect Filereta's arrival, presumably within moments of the SKM detecting the hyper footprint of so many big ships.

Granted, the DB commander ought to have been a little suspicious when they suddenly were basically given permission to fulfill their mission and trigger Tsang's whatever. Where Tsang and the planner's arrogance shows up is that the DB wasn't ordered / didn't bring at least a limited tactical survey with them. Then again, in the Honorverse as written, we know what happens to alarmist officers because of what happened at New Tuscany, no? AKA don't tell the admiral what he or she doesn't want to hear.

Problem is even a warship's sensors can only see that hyper emergence signal from less than a lighthour away (and can only see impeller drives from even less range than that). The dinky sensors you could cram on a little DB probably aren't anywhere near as capable as those on an actual warship.

And the DB is out by the Junction, 7 light hours away from Filereta's arrival. It's simply not going to be able see a thing from that arrival using its own sensors.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:07 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:Confused me for a moment; but are you saying 4 transitions meaning 2 entries and 2 exits? Certainly a dogleg would require that; and don't forget jumps that short would have a high amount of variability; so set your aim points with room to still be safe if you drop out short. (But for a moment I thought you meant 4 hyper segments and couldn't see what the extra 2 were needed for)


Though actually you might not even need to dogleg at all. Seems to me you could clear the Manticore-A hyper limit at any point along the periphery[1] and just jump to an exit point far enough beyond the Junction's hyper limit that even dropping out short still leaves you abreast of or beyond the Junction. Even being off to a side keeps you out of the RZ and such a jump should put you close enough to eliminate most of the radio transmission lag; even if it'd take you a while to motor your ship over to where you could actually use the junction. (But be really sure you don't drop out short of the Junction cause that could easily place you in the RZ; and your ship wouldn't survive that particular mistake)

[1] Doesn't matter if you're inside the RZ because you can safely enter hyper from there; it's only exiting that's deadly


Yes, I did mean two sets of translations: from n-space at the hyperlimit to alpha, from alpha to n-space at the mid-point; then again from that point back into alpha and then from alpha back to n-space near the Junction.

The reason for that is the RZ. Unfortunately, the RZ characteristics are still a bit under-defined. It mustn't be completely impossible to transit in and out of it, otherwise -- as I've argued before -- ships would have failed to either enter or exit hyperspace near systems with wormholes for centuries, thereby clearly spelling out "there's a wormhole in this system." The RZ is a cone whose base is the radius of the star's hyperlimit, so it covers nearly 50% of the area immediately outside the hyperlimit, on the plane of the system's ecliptic (which we're also told ships prefer). Ships were translating into and out of hyper in Manticore and Sigma Draconis for a long time without ever noticing this. It would also be a very simple test for any system: make four transitions, 90° apart, and see if one of them exhibits an RZ issue.

Like Felix.

Anyway, regardless of why a dogleg course is necessary, we know it is. When Truman came from Trevor's Star with Third Fleet to succour Home Fleet during the Battle of Manticore, she implemented a dogleg course. This was the direst of circumstances, a Case Zulu. If there's any reason for skipping the dogleg, this would be it. And yet she didn't. (though she also forgot to roll pods, so her judgment at the time was compromised as a result of being hit hard in the head by the Au-Thor's Hammer)

Later, Honor did take Eighth Fleet from the Junction to Manticore-A without a dogleg. She specifically had to ask her navigators to calculate this and they warned her of the dangers and imprecisions. And Adm. Chin accepted without question that Honor would arrive 70 million km away and thus, for all she knew, out of missile range.

With all that, I can say with confidence no civilian ship would take the direct route. It was another case of Case Zulu, but the civilian news or dispatch boat doesn't need to risk the lives of their occupants. The first to break the news would probably be the one closest to the hyper limit anyway, not the one that made the shortest course. Or the one luckiest to find a colleague already in the transit queue at the Junction.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:57 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

I was thinking in terms of a RMN DD being sent through the Junction to ADM Truman (warship- not as fast as a DB but it would be unmistakable for what it was) and carrying orders for Truman.

Traveling across the Binary System at the the speed of light.....FTL where possible out to the Junction- by RMN ships so depending on what was in transit and range between Manticore to the Junction it woiuld move faster.

Of course, other than telling Truman and Beowulf that 1) SLN had committed an act of war against Manticore (and at least it's new allied partner Haven), what - if anything other than letting Tsang slink home did the Government wish Truman to do. At the very least, notifying Tsang of the destruction or capture and the state of war instigated by the dead Fillerta would be something they might want transmitted though to be sure it would get out it would be better going by Diplomatic Courier at the same time as the various news boats were rushing to file stories.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:43 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:[1] Doesn't matter if you're inside the RZ because you can safely enter hyper from there; it's only exiting that's deadly


Yes, I did mean two sets of translations: from n-space at the hyperlimit to alpha, from alpha to n-space at the mid-point; then again from that point back into alpha and then from alpha back to n-space near the Junction.

The reason for that is the RZ. Unfortunately, the RZ characteristics are still a bit under-defined. It mustn't be completely impossible to transit in and out of it, otherwise -- as I've argued before -- ships would have failed to either enter or exit hyperspace near systems with wormholes for centuries, thereby clearly spelling out "there's a wormhole in this system." The RZ is a cone whose base is the radius of the star's hyperlimit, so it covers nearly 50% of the area immediately outside the hyperlimit, on the plane of the system's ecliptic (which we're also told ships prefer). Ships were translating into and out of hyper in Manticore and Sigma Draconis for a long time without ever noticing this. It would also be a very simple test for any system: make four transitions, 90° apart, and see if one of them exhibits an RZ issue.

Like Felix.

Anyway, regardless of why a dogleg course is necessary, we know it is. When Truman came from Trevor's Star with Third Fleet to succour Home Fleet during the Battle of Manticore, she implemented a dogleg course. This was the direst of circumstances, a Case Zulu. If there's any reason for skipping the dogleg, this would be it. And yet she didn't. (though she also forgot to roll pods, so her judgment at the time was compromised as a result of being hit hard in the head by the Au-Thor's Hammer)

Later, Honor did take Eighth Fleet from the Junction to Manticore-A without a dogleg. She specifically had to ask her navigators to calculate this and they warned her of the dangers and imprecisions. And Adm. Chin accepted without question that Honor would arrive 70 million km away and thus, for all she knew, out of missile range.

With all that, I can say with confidence no civilian ship would take the direct route. It was another case of Case Zulu, but the civilian news or dispatch boat doesn't need to risk the lives of their occupants. The first to break the news would probably be the one closest to the hyper limit anyway, not the one that made the shortest course. Or the one luckiest to find a colleague already in the transit queue at the Junction.[/quote]But both of those were trying to go from the Junction towards Manticore. The restrictions aren't the same going the other way.

At All Costs wrote:fortunately, Manticore-B also lay far outside the resonance zone—the volume of space between the Junction and Manticore-A in which it was virtually impossible to translate between normal-space and hyper-space. Any wormhole terminus associated with a star formed a conical volume in hyper, with the wormhole at its apex and a base centered on the star and twice as wide as its hyper limit, in which hyper-space astrogation became less than totally reliable. The bigger the terminus or junction, the stronger the resonance effect . . . and the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, with its multiple termini, was the largest ever discovered. The resonance wave it produced was more of a tsunami, and it didn't just make astrogation "less than reliable." It made it the next best thing to flatly impossible, and any transition within the resonance (assuming someone could have plotted one in the first place) would have been no more than a complicated way to commit suicide.

At All Costs wrote:"Theo," she continued, pointing one index finger at Commander Kgari, "start plotting a new micro-jump. We'll go straight from here; no dogleg. I want us at least fifty million kilometers outside these newcomers. Seventy-five to a hundred would be better, but don't shave it any closer than fifty."
Kgari looked at her for a moment, and she tasted his shock. She was allowing him a much larger margin of error than Admiral Kuzak had allowed Third Fleet's units, but she was also requiring him to jump straight from a point inside the RZ to one on its periphery. Safety margin or no, that was extraordinarily risky, given the fact that his start point's coordinates were going to be subject to significant uncertainty, whatever he did.
But despite hus shock, his voice was clear.

At All Costs wrote:Honor Alexander-Harrington's eyes were brown ice as Theophile Kgari, in a virtuoso display of astrogation, dropped the massed superdreadnoughts of Eighth Fleet exactly where she'd told him to in a single jump right out of the center of the resonance zone.


This shows the asymmetry of the RZ. It's lethal to jump into. But it's only dangerous (making microjumps even less accurate than normal), and hard on the equipment, to jump out of. So even from a spot on the Manticore-A hyper limit that's within the RZ a ship willing to take the risk and wear and tear should be able to successfully enter hyper.

And of course near the Junction the RZ is much more concentrated leaving lots of open space beside or beyond the Junction where it's safe to emerge from hyper. Still, I agree that most civilian ships won't attempt that - they'll stick with the safe and routine trip through normal space out to the Junction. (And in many ways Astro Control and the Junction defenses probably prefer that). But a DB in a real hurry might well run that risk (after they they also routinely run the risk of pushing the risky upper edges of the Theta bands in order to shave as much time as possible of their hyper journeys) because they have a much different risk vs time-saving calculation than most civilan ships.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:15 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:But both of those were trying to go from the Junction towards Manticore. The restrictions aren't the same going the other way.
[cut]

This shows the asymmetry of the RZ. It's lethal to jump into. But it's only dangerous (making microjumps even less accurate than normal), and hard on the equipment, to jump out of. So even from a spot on the Manticore-A hyper limit that's within the RZ a ship willing to take the risk and wear and tear should be able to successfully enter hyper.

And of course near the Junction the RZ is much more concentrated leaving lots of open space beside or beyond the Junction where it's safe to emerge from hyper. Still, I agree that most civilian ships won't attempt that - they'll stick with the safe and routine trip through normal space out to the Junction. (And in many ways Astro Control and the Junction defenses probably prefer that). But a DB in a real hurry might well run that risk (after they they also routinely run the risk of pushing the risky upper edges of the Theta bands in order to shave as much time as possible of their hyper journeys) because they have a much different risk vs time-saving calculation than most civilan ships.


The text you pasted does not support your conclusion that it's worse near the Junction than near the star. But it's actually a very good theory, which would neatly explain why no one noticed the difficult translation to and from hyper around Manticore-A's hyperlimit or Sigma Draconis'. I'm inclined to agree with it and will adopt your conclusion from now on.

If you're right, then a DB at the hyperlimit can get to the Junction in just under half an hour, without having to go higher than the Alpha band. Going higher would reduce a couple of minutes at most, so it might not be worth it.

Whether it's possible to translate upwards continuously, without having to stop in each band and recharge the generators, isn't known. It sounds possible, because one can crash downwards in an emergency, but until RFC makes a definitive statement, we'll have to account for both possibilities.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:20 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Brigade XO wrote:I was thinking in terms of a RMN DD being sent through the Junction to ADM Truman (warship- not as fast as a DB but it would be unmistakable for what it was) and carrying orders for Truman.


They don't need a DD to do that. Any ship transiting to Sigma Draconis can carry the encrypted orders. The Control station on the far side receives the update, decodes it and then transmits to Truman. If the content is too sensitive to trust even to encryption (suppose the transiting ship conveniently "forgets" to transmit the entire update -- it'll be fined, but so what?), then the Junction Control can simply insert one of its own boats in the queue as the next possible transit.

There's no need for a DD to come from the inner system. The Hermes system has been continuously updating Astro Control with a 7-minute delay.

In any case, what would the orders to Truman be? There already was a declared state of war between Manticore and the League since Spindle, possibly even since First or Second New Tuscany. The League hadn't acknowledged it and couldn't acknowledge because only the Congress could approve a state of war, but Manticore had declared it.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:25 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But both of those were trying to go from the Junction towards Manticore. The restrictions aren't the same going the other way.
[cut]

This shows the asymmetry of the RZ. It's lethal to jump into. But it's only dangerous (making microjumps even less accurate than normal), and hard on the equipment, to jump out of. So even from a spot on the Manticore-A hyper limit that's within the RZ a ship willing to take the risk and wear and tear should be able to successfully enter hyper.

And of course near the Junction the RZ is much more concentrated leaving lots of open space beside or beyond the Junction where it's safe to emerge from hyper. Still, I agree that most civilian ships won't attempt that - they'll stick with the safe and routine trip through normal space out to the Junction. (And in many ways Astro Control and the Junction defenses probably prefer that). But a DB in a real hurry might well run that risk (after they they also routinely run the risk of pushing the risky upper edges of the Theta bands in order to shave as much time as possible of their hyper journeys) because they have a much different risk vs time-saving calculation than most civilan ships.


The text you pasted does not support your conclusion that it's worse near the Junction than near the star. But it's actually a very good theory, which would neatly explain why no one noticed the difficult translation to and from hyper around Manticore-A's hyperlimit or Sigma Draconis'. I'm inclined to agree with it and will adopt your conclusion from now on.

If you're right, then a DB at the hyperlimit can get to the Junction in just under half an hour, without having to go higher than the Alpha band. Going higher would reduce a couple of minutes at most, so it might not be worth it.
I didn't actually mean to imply it was worse near the junction. "Concentrated" was a poorly chosen word - I had just meant that because it angles out it is very broad near the hyper limit and very narrow near the junction. (And thus most of the volume near the junction doesn't happen to be within the RZ)

Now the effects of the RZ may well be more powerful near the Junction - and I can see logical reasons why it should be (inverse square law for example) - but I'm unaware of anything RFC has written or posted that says it might be so.


However what RFC has definitely posted (such as one reposted here by Duckk, I guess originally from the Baen Bar, on Feb 3, 2012 in a thread 'possible new destroyer design') it that wormholes and RZ aren't the only phenomenon that cause dangerous "gravitic faults" which can endanger ships exiting hyper. Here's a key excerpt from that post.
runsforcelery; reposted by Duckk wrote:(Please note that although "gravitic faults" are much more common than wormholes, that doesn't mean that there are bunches and bunches of them lying around. There are enough of them that they became well understood in terms of their problem potential for astrogation well before the first wormhole was discovered, and for people to basically say "Oh, there's another one," whenever a new one was encountered. The operable point here is simply that because they were a "known phenomenon" and because the resonance zones associated with any wormholes previously discovered were so much weaker than the Manticoran RZ, the "Oh, it's just another gravitic fault" school of thought kept anyone from considering the "Omigod! Maybe we've got the mother of all wormholes sitting out there!" school of thought.")
So apparently Manticore was aware that ships had to avoid portions of its hyper limit when arriving long before anybody knew that the effect might be related to a wormhole.
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:50 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:I didn't actually mean to imply it was worse near the junction. "Concentrated" was a poorly chosen word - I had just meant that because it angles out it is very broad near the hyper limit and very narrow near the junction. (And thus most of the volume near the junction doesn't happen to be within the RZ)


Proportionately the volume is the same. Exactly one hemisphere of the hyperlimit of either the Junction or the Star is covered by the RZ. Given that the height of the cone is much bigger than the radius of the bases, the slope is rather minimal.

Now the effects of the RZ may well be more powerful near the Junction - and I can see logical reasons why it should be (inverse square law for example) - but I'm unaware of anything RFC has written or posted that says it might be so.


That's what I was referring to and it makes a lot of sense.

You were apparently thinking of inverse square law because of the distance from the source of the event, the Junction. The other reason why it might be felt more strongly near the Junction is that the cross-section of the RZ near the Junction is much smaller than near the star, meaning that the effects are proportionately bigger too.

However what RFC has definitely posted (such as one reposted here by Duckk, I guess originally from the Baen Bar, on Feb 3, 2012 in a thread 'possible new destroyer design') it that wormholes and RZ aren't the only phenomenon that cause dangerous "gravitic faults" which can endanger ships exiting hyper. Here's a key excerpt from that post.
runsforcelery; reposted by Duckk wrote:(Please note that although "gravitic faults" are much more common than wormholes, that doesn't mean that there are bunches and bunches of them lying around. There are enough of them that they became well understood in terms of their problem potential for astrogation well before the first wormhole was discovered, and for people to basically say "Oh, there's another one," whenever a new one was encountered. The operable point here is simply that because they were a "known phenomenon" and because the resonance zones associated with any wormholes previously discovered were so much weaker than the Manticoran RZ, the "Oh, it's just another gravitic fault" school of thought kept anyone from considering the "Omigod! Maybe we've got the mother of all wormholes sitting out there!" school of thought.")
So apparently Manticore was aware that ships had to avoid portions of its hyper limit when arriving long before anybody knew that the effect might be related to a wormhole.


Maybe they are all wormholes, just not yet discovered. It would completely upen the strategic and economic state of the Galaxy if it were.

They could also be closed warp points (Starfire).
Top
Re: Why were they so foolish?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:35 pm

Loren Pechtel
Commodore

Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:24 pm

cthia wrote:But that part of the Mandarin plan never made any sense to me. I understand posturing, but everybody knows that you don't pull a gun unless you are prepared to use it. Posturing or bluffing isn't a very good plan when there would be a real battle raging just on the other side of the junction.


If it fails, they turn the Solarian government against Beowulf. If it succeeds they get more of the SLN destroyed. Finding out that Beowulf is right isn't part of the plan, it was no doubt prohibited.
Top

Return to Honorverse