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The Torch Wormhole

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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:21 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Either way, word still gets out if there's a ship that isn't in orbit. The RTN will likely not keep all its frigates in orbit at any point in time, so catching all of them with LDs or any spider-driven ship is nearly impossible. In fact, there's nothing the MAN can throw at it that is faster than an RTN frigate, so if all the frigates aren't destroyed in the first 2 minutes of the battle, one of them will get away and warn all the allies via Erewhon. And then the MAN finds itself in the original position of having to defend the wormhole against the premier fighting force in the Galaxy.

Depends in part on where the roaming frigates are. The LDs and graser torps are too low accel to be likely to catch a fleeing frigate. (They'd need to guess right about it's course and get onto the right position and vector for it to pass within weapons range).

But the LDs are expected to carry pods of Cataphract missiles. Enough of those, with ballistic segments, could swat down a frigate more than 2 minutes after it sees the initial attack. OTOH if the frigate is close enough to the hyper limit it might escape before a Cataphract swarm could overwhelm it.


Still, I generally agree it would be quite hard for the MAlign to have high confidence that every ship that might see the attack could get destroyed before it could escape with the news.

These are Alphas, they wouldn't make things that hard on themselves. They can rendezvous with the planet and deliver demonstration strikes and force the government to surrender, along with all ships. The same demands made by Honor. Under penalty of ruthless reprisals of a scorched Earth policy. Same as the threat made by Honor. Heck, with the personal grudges they carry against certain people in the system, they'd almost be hoping the demands to surrender were ignored. Same as Honor. Again, these are Alphas. Same as Honor. And they are really really pissed because they lost a loved one. Same as Honor. The MAlign has always operated with a few screws loose.

Same as Honor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:46 pm

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cthia wrote:These are Alphas, they wouldn't make things that hard on themselves. They can rendezvous with the planet and deliver demonstration strikes and force the government to surrender, along with all ships. The same demands made by Honor. Under penalty of ruthless reprisals of a scorched Earth policy. Same as the threat made by Honor. Heck, with the personal grudges they carry against certain people in the system, they'd almost be hoping the demands to surrender were ignored. Same as Honor. Again, these are Alphas. Same as Honor. And they are really really pissed because they lost a loved one. Same as Honor. The MAlign has always operated with a few screws loose.

Same as Honor.


These are Alphas, they screwed up the Talbott quadrant, flubbed Houdini, messed up the Torch strike - and Congo for that matter, the messed up the Zilwiki affair on Terra, they....

In short they are in love with themselves and their superhuman nature, but their track record isn't that great.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:54 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:These are Alphas, they wouldn't make things that hard on themselves. They can rendezvous with the planet and deliver demonstration strikes and force the government to surrender, along with all ships. The same demands made by Honor. Under penalty of ruthless reprisals of a scorched Earth policy. Same as the threat made by Honor. Heck, with the personal grudges they carry against certain people in the system, they'd almost be hoping the demands to surrender were ignored. Same as Honor. Again, these are Alphas. Same as Honor. And they are really really pissed because they lost a loved one. Same as Honor. The MAlign has always operated with a few screws loose.

Same as Honor.


These are Alphas, they screwed up the Talbott quadrant, flubbed Houdini, messed up the Torch strike - and Congo for that matter, the messed up the Zilwiki affair on Terra, they....

In short they are in love with themselves and their superhuman nature, but their track record isn't that great.

Agreed.

But they're batting a thousand in their naval operations. Against the best the galaxy has to offer.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by jtg452   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:12 pm

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cthia wrote:

Agreed.

But they're batting a thousand in their naval operations. Against the best the galaxy has to offer.

Hitting somebody in the head with a bat while they are in bed asleep ain't winning a fight.

The damage caused is real but they messed up and didn't hit them hard enough or enough times because the Manties and the Graysons survived- and now they know that somebody has been sneaking around their houses with ill intentions.

That means that was a one time thing because now they know to be on the look out. The Manties might eventually slack off a little (say, after 40 or 50 years of constant peace) but do you really see the Graysons from becoming complacent?

The MA's problem is that they know that they ought to be the smartest people in the room. Unfortunately for them, 'ought to' and 'is' are two completely different things.

It's like Zilwiki told the Scrag that grabbed Helen on Earth (right before he broke his neck with a full nelson). So-called genetic superior types are only superior to the average human. Like in a Bell Curve, there are folks that are naturally below and, more importantly in this case, above the average.

Their comfortable superiority between themselves and the average human suddenly gets really narrow when they run into natural humans that are far above average.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
cthia wrote:

Agreed.

But they're batting a thousand in their naval operations. Against the best the galaxy has to offer.

Hitting somebody in the head with a bat while they are in bed asleep ain't winning a fight.

The damage caused is real but they messed up and didn't hit them hard enough or enough times because the Manties and the Graysons survived- and now they know that somebody has been sneaking around their houses with ill intentions.

That means that was a one time thing because now they know to be on the look out. The Manties might eventually slack off a little (say, after 40 or 50 years of constant peace) but do you really see the Graysons from becoming complacent?

The MA's problem is that they know that they ought to be the smartest people in the room. Unfortunately for them, 'ought to' and 'is' are two completely different things.

It's like Zilwiki told the Scrag that grabbed Helen on Earth (right before he broke his neck with a full nelson). So-called genetic superior types are only superior to the average human. Like in a Bell Curve, there are folks that are naturally below and, more importantly in this case, above the average.

Their comfortable superiority between themselves and the average human suddenly gets really narrow when they run into natural humans that are far above average.

But doesn't that just prove the resourcefulness of an Alpha? In the HV you have to bring a gun to a knife fight. See grasers at knife fighting range. The MA simply proved you can bring a baseball bat to a naval engagement. Used while in their bed, it's akin to a gun with a silencer. LOL

The person who says, " That ain't fair, you sucker punched me!" Is the sucker who lost the engagement.

"But I'm gonna get you next time!"

"Not if I see you first and you can't see me."

It's the art of fighting without fighting. Honor used it at Cerberus. I suppose Alphas are born with the tactic.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:55 pm

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cthia wrote:But doesn't that just prove the resourcefulness of an Alpha? In the HV you have to bring a gun to a knife fight. See grasers at knife fighting range. The MA simply proved you can bring a baseball bat to a naval engagement. Used while in their bed, it's akin to a gun with a silencer. LOL

The person who says, " That ain't fair, you sucker punched me!" Is the sucker who lost the engagement.

"But I'm gonna get you next time!"

"Not if I see you first and you can't see me."

It's the art of fighting without fighting. Honor used it at Cerberus. I suppose Alphas are born with the tactic.

Arguably they gave up a major strategic advantage (the fact nobody knew they existed) in exchange for very damaging, but ultimately not decisive, tactical victory.

Basically they sucker punched their opponent when what they needed to do was assassinate them. Yeah, they might be able to to sucker punch them again - but they made it far harder to do so, or to do what they really need to do, than if they'd restrained themselves until they could make a single decisive move that guaranteed them victory.

Sounds shortsighted and not evidence of truly highly intelligent strategic thinking.

(But something I'm guilty in in a number of board games; I'll see such a great tactical move I get carried away without making sure it actually best serves my strategic goal. But then I make no claims of being a super-human mastermind :D)
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:11 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:But doesn't that just prove the resourcefulness of an Alpha? In the HV you have to bring a gun to a knife fight. See grasers at knife fighting range. The MA simply proved you can bring a baseball bat to a naval engagement. Used while in their bed, it's akin to a gun with a silencer. LOL

The person who says, " That ain't fair, you sucker punched me!" Is the sucker who lost the engagement.

"But I'm gonna get you next time!"

"Not if I see you first and you can't see me."

It's the art of fighting without fighting. Honor used it at Cerberus. I suppose Alphas are born with the tactic.

Arguably they gave up a major strategic advantage (the fact nobody knew they existed) in exchange for very damaging, but ultimately not decisive, tactical victory.

Basically they sucker punched their opponent when what they needed to do was assassinate them. Yeah, they might be able to to sucker punch them again - but they made it far harder to do so, or to do what they really need to do, than if they'd restrained themselves until they could make a single decisive move that guaranteed them victory.

Sounds shortsighted and not evidence of truly highly intelligent strategic thinking.

(But something I'm guilty in in a number of board games; I'll see such a great tactical move I get carried away without making sure it actually best serves my strategic goal. But then I make no claims of being a super-human mastermind :D)

Arguably? I'm prepared to throw the towel in on that one. It seems a lot of that was going around, because of unforeseen flys getting in the ointment. It happened to Manticore with Apollo as well.

But, it also accomplished something critical for the MAlign. They got to field test and refine their tech against the most fortified system in human history. What good is having a baseball bat if you don't test it on the field first. It just might have a flaw which breaks it on the first swing. Someone had to first find out that a bat can't take a hit on the label. The US couldn't claim they had an atomic bomb until they field tested it. It could have been a dud that did nothing but put a hole in the roof of a factory.

Plus, it is unquantifiable what the RMN could have produced if they weren't thrown off balance. They were on a roll in their R&D. Gram was too fucking efficient. It had to go.

It is similar to what God did to his people when they only spoke one language and was building things at an enormous rate. The Tower of Babel was about to reach into the heavens. Then God confounded them and slowed them up by making them speak different languages. The RMN and Havenite tools and tech spoke different languages. And we know the MAlign think they're gods. And I'm not so sure they aren't gods. They can control people and make them do their bidding and follow their commandments. God can't even do that.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:53 am

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cthia wrote:It is similar to what God did to his people when they only spoke one language and was building things at an enormous rate. The Tower of Babel was about to reach into the heavens. Then God confounded them and slowed them up by making them speak different languages. The RMN and Havenite tools and tech spoke different languages. And we know the MAlign think they're gods. And I'm not so sure they aren't gods. They can control people and make them do their bidding and follow their commandments. God can't even do that.

How does it affect your analogy that "RMN and Havenite tools and tech" will hereafter speak the same language? So prior to the strike they spoke different languages and after the reveal of the the presence of the Malign, they will change to speak the same. Are you pointing to another mistake by the Malign, brought on by thinking that they are gods?

PS. God can do that (that is what omnipotent means), but chooses not to do so. ((actually it is not as simple as that))
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:45 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:It is similar to what God did to his people when they only spoke one language and was building things at an enormous rate. The Tower of Babel was about to reach into the heavens. Then God confounded them and slowed them up by making them speak different languages. The RMN and Havenite tools and tech spoke different languages. And we know the MAlign think they're gods. And I'm not so sure they aren't gods. They can control people and make them do their bidding and follow their commandments. God can't even do that.

How does it affect your analogy that "RMN and Havenite tools and tech" will hereafter speak the same language? So prior to the strike they spoke different languages and after the reveal of the the presence of the Malign, they will change to speak the same. Are you pointing to another mistake by the Malign, brought on by thinking that they are gods?

PS. God can do that (that is what omnipotent means), but chooses not to do so.

Although I must remain true to myself, admittedly my response to your question is subjective. It doesn't affect my analogy at all. Again, I could be wrong, and I'm not taking anything away from the dynamic demonic duo. A triple-D woman is some kind of a pair of gals. :D

I still think the MA accomplished the unquantifiable by destroying Hephaestus and Vulcan. And I think Project Gram was more deadly on its own, without Shannon.

Your mileage may vary, but what would have been more frightening to the Alignment is if they HAD NOT destroyed Hephaestus and Vulcan, and the dynamic demonic duo were having sleepovers and sharing their secrets in an unscathed MBS. The MAlign got themselves some breathing room. If their attack dropped enough crumbs that lead back to Darius, then maybe I need to reassess the success of their naval operations. But as it stands, they're batting a thousand.

Agreed. God can do that. But he chose not to. He doesn't want mindless automatons worshipping him. What good is that? Obviously the MAlign want worship too, but they can certainly care less whether their flock is mindless.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by jtg452   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:28 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Arguably they gave up a major strategic advantage (the fact nobody knew they existed) in exchange for very damaging, but ultimately not decisive, tactical victory.

Basically they sucker punched their opponent when what they needed to do was assassinate them. Yeah, they might be able to to sucker punch them again - but they made it far harder to do so, or to do what they really need to do, than if they'd restrained themselves until they could make a single decisive move that guaranteed them victory.

Sounds shortsighted and not evidence of truly highly intelligent strategic thinking.

(But something I'm guilty in in a number of board games; I'll see such a great tactical move I get carried away without making sure it actually best serves my strategic goal. But then I make no claims of being a super-human mastermind :D)

Exactly.

For a bunch of genetically enhanced super people, they apparently don't know the difference between tactics and strategy.

The tactic was amazing- too bad it screwed up a centuries long strategy of staying covert AND it wasn't devastating enough to eliminate either the Manties or the Graysons.

It was remarkably short sighted.

I get that the action of Oyster Bay was intended to weaken the Manties enough that the Sollies had a shot of ultimately taking them out (but only after the Solarian Union is weakened enough that it falls apart).

did they really believe that the rest of the galaxy going to forget that there's this mysterious party loose out there that pulled the attack off? What did they expect, people to blame it on the space gerbils?
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