Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], ThinksMarkedly and 15 guests

The Torch Wormhole

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by munroburton   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:23 pm

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2134
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:16 am
Location: Scotland

Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:And will missiles get an accel boost too? They're not as limited by compensation.

OTOH the missiles have, if anything, been regressing in acceleration. For a while during the first war the accel, and hence range, had been creeping upwards. I think the quickest we saw was during the White Haven's attack in Barnett shortly before the ceasefire. Those (presumably Mk41) MDMs were capable of 96,000/48,000g. But some the 2nd war and the fusion powered Mk23 & Mk16 MDM/DDMs and we're back down to the early war 92,000/42,000g.

I don't know if RFC had an in-universe reason for that written into his tech bible before he wrote War of Honor or if he'd just forgot how quick he'd had the pre-ceasefire missiles get. But the only missiles we've seen getting quicker since the ceasefire are the CMs. So who knows if the offensive missiles will get some of that acceleration boost - or if the DDMs will pick up the longer drive endurance of the ERM/LERM missiles which would give them a substantial range boost.


.8c has been implied to be an effective top speed due to particle shielding limitations. Pushing missiles significantly beyond this limit may have caused issues severe enough to rule out using all three drives on half-power settings and they stepped them down to get that option back.
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:36 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1593
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH the missiles have, if anything, been regressing in acceleration. For a while during the first war the accel, and hence range, had been creeping upwards. I think the quickest we saw was during the White Haven's attack in Barnett shortly before the ceasefire. Those (presumably Mk41) MDMs were capable of 96,000/48,000g. But some the 2nd war and the fusion powered Mk23 & Mk16 MDM/DDMs and we're back down to the early war 92,000/42,000g.

I don't know if RFC had an in-universe reason for that written into his tech bible before he wrote War of Honor or if he'd just forgot how quick he'd had the pre-ceasefire missiles get. But the only missiles we've seen getting quicker since the ceasefire are the CMs. So who knows if the offensive missiles will get some of that acceleration boost - or if the DDMs will pick up the longer drive endurance of the ERM/LERM missiles which would give them a substantial range boost.


That's 92000/46000.

In-universe, I would speculate that the newer missiles dedicate more of their power budget to on-board computers and sensors, and they may also have lost a bit of their mass to make them smaller and/or cheaper, so a ship could carry more of them. The extra 2000 gravities would buy a Mk23 MDM 2.86 million km more in range at the end of a 9-minute flight. That is, extend the range from 65.7 to 68.6 million km, which actually just makes accuracy even worse. So my answer is that they traded off acceleration for accuracy, since they really don't want to shoot from more than 60 million km away anyway.

Against an enemy (say) 30 million km away, the extra 2000 gravities reduce the engagement time from 182 to 178 seconds. So I again I suppose trade-off ruled.

And of course there were no enemies that out-ranged them. If Havenite missiles, which did out-range them in the second war, had a snowball's chance in a very hot and sulphurous environment of hitting at over 65 million km away, the RMN would have adapted. But they didn't.
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Theemile   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:27 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

[quote="ThinksMarkedly"]

"Dry-dock" for space vessels would be a pressurised, shirt-sleeve environment.

[quote]

David has stated that no dry docks are enclosed shirt sleeve environments - all are vacuum environments. the main difference between the 3 types of dockyards are:

Hard: a dry dock is a scaffolding to support the construction and has all the hardware required to construct every major component on site and dedicated to the project.

Soft (or de-centralized): the dry dock is a scaffolding to support construction and the hardware is present to complete construction - components are fabricated in centralized location s around the yard and moved to the docks. Some versions of this use the modern "superlift" modular method, mass building ship modules on an assembly line and bolting them all together in a dry-dock, and completing the outer armor layers.

Grayson style - parts necessary to build a ship are dropped at a specified location. components are occasionally pre-fabricated elsewhere, required construction hardware moves from site to site as required.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:28 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2600
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

Theemile wrote:
David has stated that no dry docks are enclosed shirt sleeve environments - all are vacuum environments. the main difference between the 3 types of dockyards are:

Hard: a dry dock is a scaffolding to support the construction and has all the hardware required to construct every major component on site and dedicated to the project.

Soft (or de-centralized): the dry dock is a scaffolding to support construction and the hardware is present to complete construction - components are fabricated in centralized location s around the yard and moved to the docks. Some versions of this use the modern "superlift" modular method, mass building ship modules on an assembly line and bolting them all together in a dry-dock, and completing the outer armor layers.

Grayson style - parts necessary to build a ship are dropped at a specified location. components are occasionally pre-fabricated elsewhere, required construction hardware moves from site to site as required.


I agree and was using the term Dry-Dock in that sence. When Honor's 1st Heavy Cruser is having node replacement surgery that's all out in vacume by space station. When Hexapuma and Warlock (and others) were being repaird at Monica, they were in the care of the repair ship but all that was being done at the repair ship and not in at what was left of the yard faciites at Monica.

There are mobile dry-docks (and have been for a while- seen some nice photos of a US Battleship getting repairs in the Pacific in a dock that had been towed out there by a tug. Heck, when I was consulting about 6 years I ago I got an education in mobile dry-docks when I reviewed the financing of one. It was built and towed to it's primary operations location (would be moved by Oceangoing Tug but would be shifted from place to place as needed. Bunch of that would be governmenet work - (with contracts...you really like to have an income stream) but the design and intention was to be able to move it to where it was needed for customers instead of having to bring them to it.

I suspect that for much of the types of repair work you have to do on starships, you can isolate the area(s) being worked on if they normaly are pressurized and then slowly remove the air before opeing any related parts to space.

I seem to recall that one of the things that caught Honor's attention about Sirius at Basilisk was that it was very odd that the freighter hadn't even attempted to arrange for any kind of repair ship to come and fix the problem if it was beyond whatever was available either in Basilisk orbit or out by the terminus. While not being adequately give RMN presence due to political issues, was there nothing out near the terminus as far as transhipment or repair facilities for starships? Things break. A starship that can't use W-sails having just come a long way to a wormhole bridge is sort of like a kitten stuck up a tree. Falling really isn't an option and there are time and non-performance clauses in inter-stellar shipping contracts. Get it fixed or your going to lose you ship and worse.

Commercial operations for repair and warehousing/transfer if nothing else.

And, no, your not going to have a large repair ship (or a small one) running at the speed of a capital warship. But you are going to want them to go at least as fast as a commerical freighter of not the Military Fast Transports even if you only want to boost the compensators and particle shielding. Besides, your going to send something for an escort for a military repair ship and if your sending it to someplace new or where there is major work to be done there may be some additional transport needs for parts etc.
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:27 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12869
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

How big, or small, is the Torch Navy? From where did they get their crew? Are there any modern ships there? I always thought they'd be given some Manticoran tech because Zilwicki and Beth have a personal stake in it. But further thoughts show me the error of my ways.

If there is a major attack there - and there will be - the entire Torch Navy can be made to surrender, seized, then "swallowed" by the wormhole. They can be added to the RFN's OOB. The Torch Navy won't fight if the MA gets the drop on it with a graser trained on the planet after a demonstration strike.

I suppose the MA can crew them with kidnappoed and conditioned naval officers from around the galaxy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by jtg452   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am

jtg452
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:46 pm

cthia wrote:How big, or small, is the Torch Navy? From where did they get their crew? Are there any modern ships there? I always thought they'd be given some Manticoran tech because Zilwicki and Beth have a personal stake in it. But further thoughts show me the error of my ways.

If there is a major attack there - and there will be - the entire Torch Navy can be made to surrender, seized, then "swallowed" by the wormhole. They can be added to the RFN's OOB. The Torch Navy won't fight if the MA gets the drop on it with a graser trained on the planet after a demonstration strike.

I suppose the MA can crew them with kidnappoed and conditioned naval officers from around the galaxy.

Maya gave them the surviving State Security vessels (the biggest is a fairly recent class of heavy cruiser if I remember correctly) from the attack on Torch. Torch inherited a rather impressive little system defense force but lack the experience spacers to crew it.

Haven has been updating them and the Manties have sent trainers- on top of any former slaves or descendants of slaves that may have immigrated. So, you are looking at current level Havenite- but export model- tech with RMN trained crews. In other words, definitely not somebody to take lightly or to try to screw around with when you throw in the motivation the former slaves will have.

Considering their neighborhood, there's not a whole lot of navies in the region that can touch them without a heavy numerical advantage that aren't already on their side and treaty obligated to assist them (Maya and Erewhon).

That was part of the reasoning behind the frigates that Klaus Hauptmann built for them.

Not only are they particularly nasty light units with more missile defense than most (Manticore, Haven, Grayson and the Andies excluded, of course) star nation's CL's much less DD's and have 2 of those big, nasty SD graser spinal mounts that the Shrike carries AND double the magazine space of the Shrikes, but they serve as fantastic training vessels. Rotating green spacers through the frigate crews gives them experience and makes best use of their limited trained cadre.
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:25 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6730
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

jtg452 wrote:Considering their neighborhood, there's not a whole lot of navies in the region that can touch them without a heavy numerical advantage that aren't already on their side and treaty obligated to assist them (Maya and Erewhon).

That was part of the reasoning behind the frigates that Klaus Hauptmann built for them.

Not only are they particularly nasty light units with more missile defense than most (Manticore, Haven, Grayson and the Andies excluded, of course) star nation's CL's much less DD's and have 2 of those big, nasty SD graser spinal mounts that the Shrike carries AND double the magazine space of the Shrikes, but they serve as fantastic training vessels. Rotating green spacers through the frigate crews gives them experience and makes best use of their limited trained cadre.

Technically those were built for the Anti-Slavery League, and I think they were at least laid down before Torch achieved independence. However, yes, after Torch became independent the frigates then formed the initial core of the Torch Navy.

And I have a vague recollection that in addition to the Nat Turner-class double-headed Shrike frigates they had another class of somewhat more conventional frigates - but also with Mantie-lite technology.
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:36 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1593
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Jonathan_S wrote:And I have a vague recollection that in addition to the Nat Turner-class double-headed Shrike frigates they had another class of somewhat more conventional frigates - but also with Mantie-lite technology.


There was a previous class, the John Brown class, before the Nat Turners. According to the wiki, there were 7 John Browns delivered to the ASL and to the RTN, and 8 Nat Turners directly to the RTN. Those 13 frigates bite and I wouldn't want to tangle with them unless I had modern ships of my own.

Do we know if they fire Mk16 DDMs? Or just Mk21 CMs like the Shrikes?
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Theemile   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:00 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:And I have a vague recollection that in addition to the Nat Turner-class double-headed Shrike frigates they had another class of somewhat more conventional frigates - but also with Mantie-lite technology.


There was a previous class, the John Brown class, before the Nat Turners. According to the wiki, there were 7 John Browns delivered to the ASL and to the RTN, and 8 Nat Turners directly to the RTN. Those 13 frigates bite and I wouldn't want to tangle with them unless I had modern ships of my own.

Do we know if they fire Mk16 DDMs? Or just Mk21 CMs like the Shrikes?



Hauptman could only push the tech transfer so far with Erewhon and Haven hovering over Torch, So I doubt Torch got anything on the secrets list. Most likely they were armed with LAC missiles and Mk 30 CMs. Mk 16s are 24 tons heavier and require totally different launch systems - nothing smaller than a Roland can fire mk 16s from the hammerheads, a Sag-C for broadsides, let alone it being on the secrets list, as are mk 31 and 32 CMs.

Everything Torch got was Manty Export grade - which still means better than 95% of the rest of the universe's first line hardware. In the near future, they will probably get a cross the board upgrade to top Manty tech, but that is tomorrow's story.

Torch was also supposed to get 3 Hauptman built destroyers, but OB "might" have complicated that - no word on their stats or delivery.

All the former PNiE Havenite ships (5 Mars-C CAs, 2-3 CLs, and 16-18 SLN built DDs) have hidden self destruct devices installed by the Malign. Tum-te-Tum-te-tum...

I believe the Wiki is wrong - my notes have only 6 John Browns being built for the anti-slavery league, and the 8 Nat Turners later directly for Torch for a total of 14.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:40 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1593
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:Hauptman could only push the tech transfer so far with Erewhon and Haven hovering over Torch, So I doubt Torch got anything on the secrets list. Most likely they were armed with LAC missiles and Mk 30 CMs. Mk 16s are 24 tons heavier and require totally different launch systems - nothing smaller than a Roland can fire mk 16s from the hammerheads, a Sag-C for broadsides, let alone it being on the secrets list, as are mk 31 and 32 CMs.


I see. I was going to say that Rolands could fire them from broadsides, but I just checked the facts and I would have been wrong. At Saltash, Capt. Zavala fired 120 missiles in each wave of against Adm. Dubroskaya's Indefatigables and we were told those were "double doubles." I assumed that meant broadsides, with six launchers on each side (12 missiles per ship per launch times two launches, times 5 ships = 120). But those are actually hammerhead launchers, not broadside.

Everything Torch got was Manty Export grade - which still means better than 95% of the rest of the universe's first line hardware. In the near future, they will probably get a cross the board upgrade to top Manty tech, but that is tomorrow's story.


Indeed, just like the RMN decided to help equip the Mayans with more up-to-date missiles too.

All the former PNiE Havenite ships (5 Mars-C CAs, 2-3 CLs, and 16-18 SLN built DDs) have hidden self destruct devices installed by the Malign. Tum-te-Tum-te-tum...


Might?!

I think it was well established that there were self-destructs aboard and that the MAN "observers" were going to detonate them in case of PNE victory.

I believe the Wiki is wrong - my notes have only 6 John Browns being built for the anti-slavery league, and the 8 Nat Turners later directly for Torch for a total of 14.


Off by one.
Top

Return to Honorverse