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The Torch Wormhole

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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:01 am

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Wormhole Terminus

map1 and map2


I have to keep including maps for myself. It would be nice if I could click on a map at the top of the forum somewhere.


Theemile, thanks a billion for this memo! . . .

Theemile wrote:We know the Torch wormhole is a bridge (2 termini, no junction) to the system informally known as the Twins. It is not a junction with multiple termini - that was just a cover story. It is instead an astronomical anomaly, with a 2nd, unrelated wormhole termini also in the Twins system. This connects to the Felix wormhole, which also has termini in Darius, and 2 unnamed systems. This "system" connects 6 separate systems (Torch, Twins, Felix, Darius and 2 additional termini.)

1) The only systems mentioned to have coverage were:

The Twins terminus of the Torch/Twins bridge - mobile units - BC squadron.
The Felix Junction - mobile units of the Mannerheim 2nd? Fleet (DN level assets)

It was mentioned that the Twin force was a temporary deployment because the MAlign had knowledge of the Harvest Joy's movement schedule, not permanent.

2) The force that hit the Harvest Joy was a Mannerheim taskforce, not Mesan, so no, zero chance.

3) Torch will probably be a focal point of conflict - for the obvious reasons. unfortunately, Maya and Erewhon will both soon have podlayers, and Manticore and Haven suddenly have freed up some of their capital ships, so they may deploy some on training maneuvers to the sector. So burning it down may become much less easy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:44 am

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Forts can't transit wormholes because they are built -very specificly without any hyperspace ability- and while they may be the size of DN or SD they are constructed in moduals and assembled where they are intended to be used. The power and equipment that would otherwise be for the hyperdrive and W-sail are dispensed with in favor of weapons, armor/shields and similar items. They can manuver "in-system" but are slow. Their job is to defend a specific location in specific ways.


Theoreticaly you could build a LD transport vehicle with conventional hyperddrive and W-sail capabity. The idea of such a transporter which is essentialy an open framework with enough space inside the framework for an LD -or anything else that big- would depend on exactly how the field that will surround the vessel is suppposed to work. Probably you would need to build something that operated with something like a pair of really large (about 1/4 of the diameter of the vessel- hinged doors that, when latched together, give enough cohesion to the frame and ability to exist within the hyperdrive field to move in hyperdrive. Giant lattiswork spear or spindle perhaps.

We have seen Repair ships mentioned but we don't have an image of one, even in outline. I'm guessing that they would be like a variation on modern day work barges or mobile dry-docks only self powered for movement. That and a lot of parts that need to be extended or deployed to operate would be folded back/retracted before the ship could much more than station-keeping or very slow sublight manuvering. Way too much stress and strain the further out from your primary hull segments. Power Engineering, life support. engines/nodes etc, quarters/living spaces, Navigation/Con, etc. and all the storage areas and work areas both in vacuum and presureized.

Besides, logistic support and repairs "at sea" is not a new idea or skill set. In space you don't need a handy island with bay or fjord to shelter from wind and storms. Your already working in vaccume. Not actualy using "dry-docks" in space. It used to be that submarines and, earlier, commerce raiders, would meet at just coordinates with their supply ships, primarily to avoid detection and maintain operational security.
Do you put passive defence (well some sort of stealth and EMC supression would be nice) or short range defense weapons on repair ships- at least CM and laser clusters?

How capable of acceleration would a repair ship be? If you are going to deploy them with the logistics train of a fleet or operation they have to be able to keep up. So do you have ships that are "civilian" grade nodes, compensators, particle shields and "fast repair" variety with miiitary grand equipment including speed?
How many sizes and configuratons do repair ships come in? So many questions.....:)
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:43 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Theoreticaly you could build a LD transport vehicle with conventional hyperddrive and W-sail capabity. The idea of such a transporter which is essentialy an open framework with enough space inside the framework for an LD -or anything else that big- would depend on exactly how the field that will surround the vessel is suppposed to work. Probably you would need to build something that operated with something like a pair of really large (about 1/4 of the diameter of the vessel- hinged doors that, when latched together, give enough cohesion to the frame and ability to exist within the hyperdrive field to move in hyperdrive. Giant lattiswork spear or spindle perhaps.


I don't think those things exist. We haven't heard of SD-transport vehicles, so I don't think there'll be an LD one.

Besides, logistic support and repairs "at sea" is not a new idea or skill set. In space you don't need a handy island with bay or fjord to shelter from wind and storms. Your already working in vaccume. Not actualy using "dry-docks" in space. It used to be that submarines and, earlier, commerce raiders, would meet at just coordinates with their supply ships, primarily to avoid detection and maintain operational security.
Do you put passive defence (well some sort of stealth and EMC supression would be nice) or short range defense weapons on repair ships- at least CM and laser clusters?


"Dry-dock" for space vessels would be a pressurised, shirt-sleeve environment.

How capable of acceleration would a repair ship be? If you are going to deploy them with the logistics train of a fleet or operation they have to be able to keep up. So do you have ships that are "civilian" grade nodes, compensators, particle shields and "fast repair" variety with miiitary grand equipment including speed?
How many sizes and configuratons do repair ships come in? So many questions.....:)


It doesn't have to accelerate anywhere nearly as much as the warships. 350 gravities is plenty, even less. What it does need to keep formation is military-grade particle shields and hyper generators.

The wiki doesn't list how fast the HMS Charles Ward accelerates, but it wasn't very fast. Support ships and the fleet train do not have to keep up with the warships during combat; you don't want those ships anywhere near combat, actually (unless Harkness is nearby thinking out-of-the-box solutuions). During non-combat, which is the vast majority of the time spent away from port, the warships simply keep pace with the fleet train. That's how they would maintain formation during acceleration in hyperspace; once they get to cruising speed, acceleration doesn't matter.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:12 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The wiki doesn't list how fast the HMS Charles Ward accelerates, but it wasn't very fast. Support ships and the fleet train do not have to keep up with the warships during combat; you don't want those ships anywhere near combat, actually (unless Harkness is nearby thinking out-of-the-box solutuions). During non-combat, which is the vast majority of the time spent away from port, the warships simply keep pace with the fleet train. That's how they would maintain formation during acceleration in hyperspace; once they get to cruising speed, acceleration doesn't matter.

Actually - from what I just worked out it seems she's pretty darned fast, even for modern Manticoran units.

Shadow of Victory provides some data points that appear to let us work out her acceleration
Shadow of Victory Ch. 70 wrote:Alistair McKeon and the rest of his task group had been in Włocławek space for just over three minutes, although he’d been in no hurry to move in-system the instant he arrived. Even now, he was pulling only eighty-three percent of his slowest unit’s maximum accel—there was no point showing the Sollies any speed advantages they didn’t already know about
That task group. TG 10.2.9. was 1 Sag-C, some 140k ton DDs, and apparently some older Culverin-class DDs, and the Charles Ward.

Shadow of Victory Ch. 70 wrote:“In addition, there’s what looks like a freighter—fairly small, two or three million tons, max, but it must have a milspec compensator to pull that accel, so it’s probably a purpose-built collier—and like a pair of dispatch boats.”
“I see. And that acceleration rate’s confirmed?”
“Yes, Sir. They started in-system at a fairly low accel, but they kicked it up to five-point-seven KPS squared about four minutes ago.”

If 5.7 KPS^2 is 83% of Charles Ward's max accel then she's capable of pulling 700g flat out! At about 3 million tons that's about 20% larger than the 2.5 mtons of a Nike-class BC(L) and for comparison HoS shows us the BC(L)s were originally designed for just 674.3g. However compensators have improved and they were completed and/or refit to be capable of high acceleration than that original spec.

Still, for whatever reason her designers gave her not just the strategic mobility to keep up with BCs (mil grad rad shielding and hyper generator) but also the ability to almost keep up with them tactically.


This implies she's running a very recent generation of Mantie compensator; certainly better than the David Taylor FSVs would originally have been designed for. But depending on exactly when she finished construction her current one might have come from the yard or she might already have gotten a compensator upgrade since commissioning.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:21 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Actually - from what I just worked out it seems she's pretty darned fast, even for modern Manticoran units.


She is an FSV, so she's supposed to be fast. I was going to say that she only needs to be fast compared to other types of support ships, which usually are as fast as commercial freighters, but your numbers below prove me wrong.

Shadow of Victory Ch. 70 wrote:Alistair McKeon and the rest of his task group had been in Włocławek space for just over three minutes, although he’d been in no hurry to move in-system the instant he arrived. Even now, he was pulling only eighty-three percent of his slowest unit’s maximum accel—there was no point showing the Sollies any speed advantages they didn’t already know about
That task group. TG 10.2.9. was 1 Sag-C, some 140k ton DDs, and apparently some older Culverin-class DDs, and the Charles Ward.

Shadow of Victory Ch. 70 wrote:“In addition, there’s what looks like a freighter—fairly small, two or three million tons, max, but it must have a milspec compensator to pull that accel, so it’s probably a purpose-built collier—and like a pair of dispatch boats.”
“I see. And that acceleration rate’s confirmed?”
“Yes, Sir. They started in-system at a fairly low accel, but they kicked it up to five-point-seven KPS squared about four minutes ago.”

If 5.7 KPS^2 is 83% of Charles Ward's max accel then she's capable of pulling 700g flat out! At about 3 million tons that's about 20% larger than the 2.5 mtons of a Nike-class BC(L) and for comparison HoS shows us the BC(L)s were originally designed for just 674.3g. However compensators have improved and they were completed and/or refit to be capable of high acceleration than that original spec.


The Culverins were the slowest ships, as 83% of their max is 454 gravities. If that's the case, then the acceleration raise the second passage mentions could have brought Charles Ward to the its max at 5.7 km/s². But even if it is, 581 gravities would be much higher than almost anything in space. And there's also no reason why they can't be as fast as a Nike (and if that's the case, then this implies the Culverins were retrofitted with newer compensators too).

Still, for whatever reason her designers gave her not just the strategic mobility to keep up with BCs (mil grad rad shielding and hyper generator) but also the ability to almost keep up with them tactically.


Maybe it's just the ability to get out of a tough spot if necessary. The David Taylors can outrun anything not of Manticoran manufacture.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:39 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Culverins were the slowest ships, as 83% of their max is 454 gravities. If that's the case, then the acceleration raise the second passage mentions could have brought Charles Ward to the its max at 5.7 km/s². But even if it is, 581 gravities would be much higher than almost anything in space. And there's also no reason why they can't be as fast as a Nike (and if that's the case, then this implies the Culverins were retrofitted with newer compensators too).
I'd say the Culverins had definitely been refitted with newer compensators. The SLN units didn't observe them falling behind the rest of the RMN squadron when it went to 5.7 KPS^2 (581.6g) acceleration; but that exceeds a Culverin's maximum design acceleration (547.4g).

As the smallest ships in the squadron they'd have the highest acceleration if they had equivalent generation compensators. Now they are old enough they probably don't have the same refit priority as the modern ships, so they likely lag somewhat behind in compenator refits; but I doubt they're so far behind the curve that ships 25 times their size have any noticeable acceleration advantage on them. :)


I'll admit it is a bit of an assumption that the 83% of max applied after the squadron pushed to the 5.7 KPS^2 acceleration; rather than before. But if that holds true then in the unlikely case the Culverin's were still the slowest ships that implies that the Charles Ward's top accel was even higher; more than 700g!
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:27 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I'll admit it is a bit of an assumption that the 83% of max applied after the squadron pushed to the 5.7 KPS^2 acceleration; rather than before. But if that holds true then in the unlikely case the Culverin's were still the slowest ships that implies that the Charles Ward's top accel was even higher; more than 700g!


The David Taylors are the newest class of Manticoran ships we've been introduced to. They don't show up in House of Steel, while all other known ships do.

Could this be foreshadowing? Is it possible Manticoran technology, maybe with Havenite help now (Sonja-Shannon Partnership, Inc.), has had more breakthroughs?
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:02 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I'll admit it is a bit of an assumption that the 83% of max applied after the squadron pushed to the 5.7 KPS^2 acceleration; rather than before. But if that holds true then in the unlikely case the Culverin's were still the slowest ships that implies that the Charles Ward's top accel was even higher; more than 700g!


The David Taylors are the newest class of Manticoran ships we've been introduced to. They don't show up in House of Steel, while all other known ships do.

Could this be foreshadowing? Is it possible Manticoran technology, maybe with Havenite help now (Sonja-Shannon Partnership, Inc.), has had more breakthroughs?
Its pretty clear there have been compensator breakthroughs since HoS (which seems to only list the design accel of the ships - which is apparently why ships that got delayed between design and commission list lower accelerations than certain of their year-mates when listed by date of commission). We've seen ships accelerating far harder than their class design specs from HoS.

For example there's a quote in SftS where a task group that included an Invictus-class SD(P) "was breaking to system south at its maximum acceleration" at "six-point-zero-one KPS squared." That 613.3g is substantially improved over the design accel of 562.6g.

So compensator improvement has been an ongoing process; and I wouldn't be surprised if it continued into the future.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:41 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:So compensator improvement has been an ongoing process; and I wouldn't be surprised if it continued into the future.


How far will it go? The Rolands and Wolfhounds had a design accel of 780 gravities and this is current as of HoS, 1919 PD. If the Invictus are getting 10% improvement, that would take the DD to about 860. Will we see 1000 gravities?

And will missiles get an accel boost too? They're not as limited by compensation.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:23 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:So compensator improvement has been an ongoing process; and I wouldn't be surprised if it continued into the future.


How far will it go? The Rolands and Wolfhounds had a design accel of 780 gravities and this is current as of HoS, 1919 PD. If the Invictus are getting 10% improvement, that would take the DD to about 860. Will we see 1000 gravities?

And will missiles get an accel boost too? They're not as limited by compensation.
A Roland or Wolfhound is pretty close to the top end of what I've noticed (I really need to go through the last few books again and try to pick out any hard acceleration numbers - problem is to be confident of knowing how much a ship has improved I need both its accel & its power level for that accel; and that combination is rarely listed together in the books)

Still, based on what their masses should have allowed with pre-Grayson tech I rate either's entry in HoS as 151.51% quicker than they'd have been with a 1900 PD compensator.

The fastest I have on my spreadsheet was the Invictus from SftS at 154.76% (compared to their design compensator at 141.97%)

Then with what is presumably a generation older compensator design we've got several classes Saganami-B-class – CA, Avalon-class – CL, Agamemnon-class – BC(P), Saganami-C-class – CA, Nike-class – BC(L), and Kamerling-class – System Control Cruiser all clocking in, per HoS design specs, tightly clustered around 145%. (The Sag-B being the oddball as it was commissioned 2 years earlier, but seems to share that compensator generation)

The Invictus and Harrington II-class SD(P)s were commissioned around the same time as most of those classes, but were originally designed with one further generation back in compensator tech. This presumably reflects the lengthier design and construction times for an SD(P) compared to the lighter units.


Who can say if the trend will continue or if they'll hit a new plateau. But based on the jumps we've been seeing getting a Roland or Wolfhound to hit 1000g flat out would be about another 7-9 generations of consistent improvement. And we've only had about 8 generations so far from generation 1 back in 1904. But assuming a roughly steady progression, no massive roadblocks or unexpected leaps forward, it'd probably be around 1940 PD before something the size of a Roland cracked 1,000 gees.



OTOH the missiles have, if anything, been regressing in acceleration. For a while during the first war the accel, and hence range, had been creeping upwards. I think the quickest we saw was during the White Haven's attack in Barnett shortly before the ceasefire. Those (presumably Mk41) MDMs were capable of 96,000/48,000g. But some the 2nd war and the fusion powered Mk23 & Mk16 MDM/DDMs and we're back down to the early war 92,000/46,000g.

I don't know if RFC had an in-universe reason for that written into his tech bible before he wrote War of Honor or if he'd just forgot how quick he'd had the pre-ceasefire missiles get. But the only missiles we've seen getting quicker since the ceasefire are the CMs. So who knows if the offensive missiles will get some of that acceleration boost - or if the DDMs will pick up the longer drive endurance of the ERM/LERM missiles which would give them a substantial range boost.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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