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Mesan Genies outside the Onion

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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:43 pm

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tlb wrote:However if there is potential telepathy within the human gene, then bringing it to full expression is not forbidden.

George J. Smith wrote:Assume Raul develops abilities to telepathically interact with the 'cats due to their communicating with him from birth, would that infer there is potential for telepathy within the human genome and as such gene manipulation to be allowed, or would it be considered unauthorised gene manipulation by the 'cats, i.e. his genome was changed to incorporate 'cat genes? Could his DNA be altered like that?

I do not see how communication implies that genetic material is being altered. DNA is not being transmitted through the aether. The fact of communication implies that telepathy is potential in the Harrington gene, but we knew that from the stories.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:52 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:Assume Raul develops abilities to telepathically interact with the 'cats due to their communicating with him from birth, would that infer there is potential for telepathy within the human genome and as such gene manipulation to be allowed, or would it be considered unauthorised gene manipulation by the 'cats, i.e. his genome was changed to incorporate 'cat genes? Could his DNA be altered like that?


Good question.

There's no possibility this is splicing of treecat genes into humans. The treecats don't have that technology and Allison would have noticed that in Alfred. Remember that Raoul's and Honor's abilities didn't start with them and we know at least Alfred has a portion of them too.

That means telepathy is possible in humans, or at least Meyerdahl-Mesan Alpha variations. This latent ability came to expression in the Harrington line (Death Fang's Bane's Clan) through long interaction with treecats.

What we don't know (and I suspect RFC will never tell us) is whether this is a result of eugenetic selection or if it was there from the beginning. That is, did the treecats, through conscious or unconscious action, cause the Harrington line to select the genetic variations that favoured treecat tele-empathy?

We'd need more data: how many other Harringtons have similar abilities? There's a lot of them who've been adopted, though unfortunately a great deal of them died during the Yawata Strike, erasing the possibility of this line of study. Another one is to look at other settlers who came Meyerdahl or had Meyerdahl heavy-grav gene mods.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:38 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:Assume Raul develops abilities to telepathically interact with the 'cats due to their communicating with him from birth, would that infer there is potential for telepathy within the human genome and as such gene manipulation to be allowed, or would it be considered unauthorised gene manipulation by the 'cats, i.e. his genome was changed to incorporate 'cat genes? Could his DNA be altered like that?


Good question.

There's no possibility this is splicing of treecat genes into humans. The treecats don't have that technology and Allison would have noticed that in Alfred. Remember that Raoul's and Honor's abilities didn't start with them and we know at least Alfred has a portion of them too.

That means telepathy is possible in humans, or at least Meyerdahl-Mesan Alpha variations. This latent ability came to expression in the Harrington line (Death Fang's Bane's Clan) through long interaction with treecats.

What we don't know (and I suspect RFC will never tell us) is whether this is a result of eugenetic selection or if it was there from the beginning. That is, did the treecats, through conscious or unconscious action, cause the Harrington line to select the genetic variations that favoured treecat tele-empathy?

We'd need more data: how many other Harringtons have similar abilities? There's a lot of them who've been adopted, though unfortunately a great deal of them died during the Yawata Strike, erasing the possibility of this line of study. Another one is to look at other settlers who came Meyerdahl or had Meyerdahl heavy-grav gene mods.

Actually, that is a very good question George. However, the determining factor may be whether the ability is truly already inherent in humanity, or whether it began as a result of genetic meddling.* If the latter, then the measure becomes vulnerable to the quite possibly irresponsible notion of "In for a penny, in for a pound."

Also, something I need to point out. As far as any inherent abilities in humans . . .

Telepathy ⊭ Telempathy

Telepathy involves actual language. The author says treecats do not use language. Plus, Telempathy has the added construct of emotion. We must consider these issues when "uplifting."

*It has been proposed that early man once had the ability to communicate via telepathy, but that the ability went the way of the dinosaur. During the reign of the dinosaurs, humans had to develop a safer way to communicate. Yelling to someone to "Look out!" put you on the menu.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:28 am

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cthia wrote: However, the determining factor may be whether the ability is truly already inherent in humanity, or whether it began as a result of genetic meddling.* If the latter, then the measure becomes vulnerable to the quite possibly irresponsible notion of "In for a penny, in for a pound."

Also, something I need to point out. As far as any inherent abilities in humans . . .

Telepathy ⊭ Telempathy

Telepathy involves actual language. The author says treecats do not use language. Plus, Telempathy has the added construct of emotion. We must consider these issues when "uplifting."

*It has been proposed that early man once had the ability to communicate via telepathy, but that the ability went the way of the dinosaur. During the reign of the dinosaurs, humans had to develop a safer way to communicate. Yelling to someone to "Look out!" put you on the menu.

It might be better to say that telepathy involves the exchange of concepts, rather than language. Language is a more laborious attempt to exchange concepts when telepathy is not available; like the treecats now using sign language to communicate to the mind-blind.

Who or what was doing the meddling to have given early men telepathy? If cave men had telepathy, then it now has to be inherent; but somehow has fallen into disuse. However that all seems unlikely: even apes have distinct calls to separately warn of leopards or eagles; even though that adds danger to the one making the call, it makes the group safer as a whole.

PS. It might also be better to substitute saber-toothed tigers for your use of dinosaurs.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:57 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:That means telepathy is possible in humans, or at least Meyerdahl-Mesan Alpha variations. This latent ability came to expression in the Harrington line (Death Fang's Bane's Clan) through long interaction with treecats.

What we don't know (and I suspect RFC will never tell us) is whether this is a result of eugenetic selection or if it was there from the beginning. That is, did the treecats, through conscious or unconscious action, cause the Harrington line to select the genetic variations that favoured treecat tele-empathy?

We'd need more data: how many other Harringtons have similar abilities? There's a lot of them who've been adopted, though unfortunately a great deal of them died during the Yawata Strike, erasing the possibility of this line of study. Another one is to look at other settlers who came Meyerdahl or had Meyerdahl heavy-grav gene mods.

Didn't one of the anthology stories have a non-Harrington, back closer to the founding of Manticore, who had a significantly heightened link with his 'cat?

I want to say he likened it similar to having the sight.

That at least hints that the ability isn't limited to the Harrington line. But I don't know if he had Meyerdahl heavy-grav gene mods or not; certainly a possibility given that he did settle on Sphynx.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:56 pm

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In the Uplift Universe essentilay almost every race we see have been uplifted by a Sponsor and is now either a Sponsor themselves or still client race of their Sponsor. For the most part the clients are not presented as comming from the same homework as the Sponsors but then my memory might not have held that information. This has been going on for a very long time and the origins are more or less in the statis of myth. Many races have come and gone, some have died out, at least one in the current pantheon has apparently chosen to slide (or move themselves) down from sentience.

And then there are the Humans and their uplifted co-Earth species. There is a phase for races like the Humans- they are Wolf Races........they are "wild". They have more or less clawed their own way up to sentience and now are uplifting other "young" species from their own world.

Wolf Races are distrusted, even feared and there is a thread (as best I remember it) that Wolf Races are and always been violent, aggressive and the cause of wars. Of course these stories and "history" are taught by the Sponsor Races and some believe that the problem is that because the Wolves were not Uplited and taught the Finer Points of Civilization (like not being upitty clients and patiently waiting till the Sponsors had decided the clients have "matured (and paid their great debt of having received sentience). So Wolves don't show sufficent defferenct to ANY uplifted race and are usualy found to be eradicated in conflicts "they started" but- in the opinion of at least a few Humans, that is just a cover story for rocking the Uplift boat, not doing what others are telling them and inspiring clients to want independence.
So, the Seeker runs into all sorts of problems and it seems that more than half the sentience races are looking to make that ship vanish because it has discovered things that Sponsors don't want know.

Ah well.

If Humans do have a latent potential for either Telepathy or Telempathy, it's most probably the close interaction with Treecats that is bringing that forward. Stephanie Harrington was the 1st but there have been a relative lot of others over the years and the only ones we know of that are genies are the present Winton Line or the Harringtons.
Of course there is also the son of a former genetic slave who had the Treecat on Torch but was origianly in the Sphinx Forestry Rangers. No specific mention that it is only genies who have been bonded.

Thing is, if Raul developed the ability to telepathicly communicate with Treecats, it is also possible that he could be a key to bringing that trait to an exibitable level in other humans. That would possibly start out as some variation of a very faint ability to sence another humans thoughts (mostly the empethy part) but bumping into a human who has any one of several (dare we call them psychic) gifts which humans are said to have had in legend and have usualy been brutaly suppressed throughout recorded history, might that bring the gift out?
I can hear the High Ridge cronies now- witches, deviants, GENIES........

Is there a New Salem where they will want to have the witchcraft trials? And won't the Alignment go nuts trying to capture some of these people to splice those genes into the Alpha Lines :)
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:53 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Thing is, if Raul developed the ability to telepathicly communicate with Treecats, it is also possible that he could be a key to bringing that trait to an exibitable level in other humans. That would possibly start out as some variation of a very faint ability to sence another humans thoughts (mostly the empethy part) but bumping into a human who has any one of several (dare we call them psychic) gifts which humans are said to have had in legend and have usualy been brutaly suppressed throughout recorded history, might that bring the gift out?


They could then create an organisation devoted to studying this as well as for mutual protection against those who would exploit them. This organisation could also regulate the activities so other people's privacy can't be violated and telepaths can't take advantage of non-telepaths. Though it's not a stretch to think that it could eventually decide to improve upon their abilities through partner selection, so as to not violate the Beowulf Code.

I guess this organisation could call itself Psi Corps.

The Corps is mother, the Corps is father.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: However, the determining factor may be whether the ability is truly already inherent in humanity, or whether it began as a result of genetic meddling.* If the latter, then the measure becomes vulnerable to the quite possibly irresponsible notion of "In for a penny, in for a pound."

Also, something I need to point out. As far as any inherent abilities in humans . . .

Telepathy ⊭ Telempathy

Telepathy involves actual language. The author says treecats do not use language. Plus, Telempathy has the added construct of emotion. We must consider these issues when "uplifting."

*It has been proposed that early man once had the ability to communicate via telepathy, but that the ability went the way of the dinosaur. During the reign of the dinosaurs, humans had to develop a safer way to communicate. Yelling to someone to "Look out!" put you on the menu.

It might be better to say that telepathy involves the exchange of concepts, rather than language. Language is a more laborious attempt to exchange concepts when telepathy is not available; like the treecats now using sign language to communicate to the mind-blind.

Who or what was doing the meddling to have given early men telepathy? If cave men had telepathy, then it now has to be inherent; but somehow has fallen into disuse. However that all seems unlikely: even apes have distinct calls to separately warn of leopards or eagles; even though that adds danger to the one making the call, it makes the group safer as a whole.

PS. It might also be better to substitute saber-toothed tigers for your use of dinosaurs.

Both methods involve the exchange of concepts, but both have to accomplish it within the parameters of their already established form of communication. For humans, that basic constituent is language. Unless you think telepathy suddenly involves the delivery and reception of concepts without a common base to either sender or receiver. Surely not, or humans who spoke different languages would suddenly understand each other, and the MA would be able to understand the cats if they are successful at bottling either telepathy or telempathy. Telepathy simply allows communication via language, quicker. Eventually, there may have been some emotion leaked in some cases, and may have come to include emotion after a time. But cavemen didn't live long enough to experience two wholly different leaps in communication.

That fact disintegrates your notion that language is an attempt to exchange communication in absence of telepathy. Caveman's first communication had to be language. If it evolved from there is beside the point. If we believe the Bible, the existence of only one language erased the communication barrier man now has with the existence of many tongues. So, efficiency does not depend on telepathy.

However, it is an interesting concept. It may imply treecats originally communicated in some other manner, but developed telepathy out of the necessity of needing to remain silent in the wild. For reasons of safety and success in hunting.

This also answers your question of who was meddling to give early man telepathy. The dinosaur was meddling.

The theory is not predicated on the saber tooth tiger, but the dinosaur. There were many different types of dinosaur that would have given man hell. Only one animal, the saber tooth tiger, would have been child's play for even the caveman to overcome. And, the theory about early man, telepathy, and the dinosaurs is not my own but some scholar.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:37 am

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cthia wrote: If we believe the Bible, the existence of only one language erased the communication barrier man now has with the existence of many tongues. So, efficiency does not depend on telepathy.

However, it is an interesting concept. It may imply treecats originally communicated in some other manner, but developed telepathy out of the necessity of needing to remain silent in the wild. For reasons of safety and success in hunting.

This also answers your question of who was meddling to give early man telepathy. The dinosaur was meddling.

The theory is not predicated on the saber tooth tiger, but the dinosaur. There were many different types of dinosaur that would have given man hell. Only one animal, the saber tooth tiger, would have been child's play for even the caveman to overcome. And, the theory about early man, telepathy, and the dinosaurs is not my own but some scholar.

When all of humanity was living within speaking distance of each other, then there could have been one proto-language; but when mankind dispersed across the globe, then that became impossible. Having one language does not mean that communication with it is efficient, instead it is a laborious process to relate any but the most simple concept to the sounds or signs being expressed. If the author says that the treecats did not use language in their telepathic communication, then that is another "pill" that you need to swallow.

There have been various stories about a person falling off a cliff, that suddenly develops teleportation. The cliff did not alter the genes of that person, rather the threat of death activated a latent ability. So too, your "dinosaur" did not meddle with anything's genes except by the simple process of killing anything that did not have the latent ability to escape; this is one facet of the process of what scholars call "evolution".

I am glad that the "theory about early man, telepathy, and the dinosaurs" is not yours, because it is not credible. You will find that "scholars" propose all sorts of fantastic theories (even today) and this one falls flat because mammals (including the much later arrival of humans) did not flourish until after the end of the dominion of the dinosaurs.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:27 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Thing is, if Raul developed the ability to telepathicly communicate with Treecats, it is also possible that he could be a key to bringing that trait to an exibitable level in other humans. That would possibly start out as some variation of a very faint ability to sence another humans thoughts (mostly the empethy part) but bumping into a human who has any one of several (dare we call them psychic) gifts which humans are said to have had in legend and have usualy been brutaly suppressed throughout recorded history, might that bring the gift out?


They could then create an organisation devoted to studying this as well as for mutual protection against those who would exploit them. This organisation could also regulate the activities so other people's privacy can't be violated and telepaths can't take advantage of non-telepaths. Though it's not a stretch to think that it could eventually decide to improve upon their abilities through partner selection, so as to not violate the Beowulf Code.

I guess this organisation could call itself Psi Corps.

The Corps is mother, the Corps is father.

And... just like that you've touched on one very significant reason why the whole idea of genies is still a taboo subject. Humans have always been afraid of what they do not understand. And oftentimes for good reason. As I understand it, treecats have been misunderstood for most of the time since their discovery.

Introducing an ability that can be used as a weapon of any design, or can be used against the average human surreptitiously, would cause any human concern or fear which would be more than justified.

Who here disagrees that if it became known that just one human has telepathy or telempathy, no one would want him or her living in their neighborhood, let alone interact with him. Dollars to donuts he'd end up dead.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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