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Mesan Genies outside the Onion

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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ZVar   » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:11 pm

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tlb wrote:However there is no mention that something special that had to be done to any of the visitors to Mesa in the recent books. So has the original problem gone away? Or was the problem overblown from the beginning?


RFC doesn't mention quarantine procedures but once either. Doesn't mean they aren't always followed. But most I see it as a short term vs. long term issue. I.E. people that are only planning on staying afew months will be fine, it's the one's planning on living there and having children there.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
zyffyr wrote:The crime is in creating the modifications, not in having them. Nothing special will happen to the people in question.
Agreed.

Though reputably geneticists would be able to offer them genetic services to allow them the option to conceive children that don't have the most egregious of the genetic modifications.

But it wouldn't be a violation of the Beowulf code for them to eschew such services and have kids that continue the "illegal" mods.

They may also need assistance with some of the worst potential side effects of those mods.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:17 pm

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--snipping, hopefully correctly--
Jonathan_S wrote:Though reputably geneticists would be able to offer them genetic services to allow them the option to conceive children that don't have the most egregious of the genetic modifications.

cthia wrote:But it wouldn't be a violation of the Beowulf code for them to eschew such services and have kids that continue the "illegal" mods.

They may also need assistance with some of the worst potential side effects of those mods.[/quote]
Agreement on both counts, and Beowulf would obviously do what they could for all such folks. My bigger question comes with the fact that these folks are likely to be way beyond the level of the so-called supermen in the "Final War" that the Beowulf code was meant to stop... and unlike those folks (in the stories), the mesan citizenry is unlikely to be sterile. What happens when the next generation of Mesan emigre's children are at the level of say, Honor Harrington? and perhap not so honorably minded?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:45 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Agreement on both counts, and Beowulf would obviously do what they could for all such folks. My bigger question comes with the fact that these folks are likely to be way beyond the level of the so-called supermen in the "Final War" that the Beowulf code was meant to stop... and unlike those folks (in the stories), the mesan citizenry is unlikely to be sterile. What happens when the next generation of Mesan emigre's children are at the level of say, Honor Harrington? and perhap not so honorably minded?

I don't see where it matters all that much. Their inherent abilities may be pushing out the ends of the bell curve, but that only helps until you come up against someone who's better trained, better equipped/armed, more numerous, or sneakier than you are. And genetics helps only a limited amount with any of those.

Okay, maybe they're stronger than anybody around them. If the society reacts to curb abuse of that strength then what's the problem.

Sure if they end up in some hell pit where physical strength and willingness to bring direct violence is and advantage they might do better than most there. But such a place is unlikely to make itself a major problem outside it's immediate area because it doesn't generate the kind of cooperation you need to make progress beyond the reach of your fists (or maybe your gun)
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:44 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Agreement on both counts, and Beowulf would obviously do what they could for all such folks. My bigger question comes with the fact that these folks are likely to be way beyond the level of the so-called supermen in the "Final War" that the Beowulf code was meant to stop... and unlike those folks (in the stories), the mesan citizenry is unlikely to be sterile. What happens when the next generation of Mesan emigre's children are at the level of say, Honor Harrington? and perhap not so honorably minded?

I don't see where it matters all that much. Their inherent abilities may be pushing out the ends of the bell curve, but that only helps until you come up against someone who's better trained, better equipped/armed, more numerous, or sneakier than you are. And genetics helps only a limited amount with any of those.

Okay, maybe they're stronger than anybody around them. If the society reacts to curb abuse of that strength then what's the problem.

Sure if they end up in some hell pit where physical strength and willingness to bring direct violence is and advantage they might do better than most there. But such a place is unlikely to make itself a major problem outside it's immediate area because it doesn't generate the kind of cooperation you need to make progress beyond the reach of your fists (or maybe your gun)

Agreed. Except perhaps in niche situations like beating people out of certain jobs. Besides, that same type of mismatch already exists amongst the SEM's own members, from Gryphon and San Martin.

The one exception to that is the aforementioned side-effects I mentioned just upstream, (misattributed). Side-effects that may include rampant instability. Manifesting itself because they lay on the cusp of almost getting culled. IOW, a borderline nut job. You know they simply have to exist on Mesa, because they exist within the Onion. Like the Bardasano gene?

A polite plea: I have been misattributed twice in a few days, and not attributed at all today.

This lazy quote structure of simply including the terminating ([/quote]) is a mess, and it causes problems right from the onset. It leads to mis-attributions and it is a bear to parse, keep correct, and repair. Especially when it ripples in waves downstream ending in a pile-up.

Personally, I take the time to ensure proper attributions and I use the complete quote structure, as well as include names in quotes. Even if sometimes I use abbreviations for long names like ThinksMarkedly. But I don't make it a habit out of respect and clarity. If I always put in the extra effort. Can we all reciprocate?

However, I AM aware that everyone may not have mastered the quote structure and may use the lazy structure as a result. But I've seen veterans use the lazy structure as well, who DO know how to use it properly. For those who don't, a simple handwritten attribute for the heading could accompany the lazy quote. Like, cthia wrote: .

Thanks in advance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:37 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Agreement on both counts, and Beowulf would obviously do what they could for all such folks. My bigger question comes with the fact that these folks are likely to be way beyond the level of the so-called supermen in the "Final War" that the Beowulf code was meant to stop... and unlike those folks (in the stories), the mesan citizenry is unlikely to be sterile. What happens when the next generation of Mesan emigre's children are at the level of say, Honor Harrington? and perhap not so honorably minded?


I don't think they are. The genetic supermen of the Final War were bred to be soldiers, with muscle mass, endurance, aggressiveness and probably not a lot of creative thinking, initiative, possibly even intelligence. Those and other task-specific mods are what need to be rectified and those are now called "genetic slaves." That is, people bred to be workers, miners, pleasure slaves, etc.

Alpha, beta, and gamma lines are not like that. Those are general-purpose improvements. There's no way the MAlign could have unleashed genetic mods with such blatant drawbacks to the general population, even in gamma lines. They'd have been discovered a long time ago. Even if not, the "benign MAlign" people would have noticed that someone was corrupting their purposes.

I have no doubt that the gamma lines have pushed the envelope of what would have been allowed by regular Beowulf Code-compliant improvements, but it's mostly on the how not the what. The improvements themselves, even if giving "unfair" advantage in some aspects, are not the issue. It's how the MAlign & LRPB went about it, with cruel experimentation that could and did produce nefarious and deleterious side-effects results, like Francesca Simões.

I put "unfair" in quotes because many such may have happened naturally or are perfectly acceptable. As noted above, high-grav dwellers will generally have more muscle mass and thus strengths, so they will stand out in any contest of pure physical strength. Similarly, inhabitants of places with higher metal toxicity will develop higher tolerance for those substances. I expect a similar thing to happen to those living in poor lighting conditions, developing eyes more sensitive at night. And dwellers of places with lower partial oxygen pressure will have more red blood cells to compensate.

Note how this last one happened and happens on our planet today: just try living for a while in Mexico City or La Paz. Every time there's an international friendly match played against Bolivian teams, the other side complains against "unfair" advantage.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by kzt   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:09 pm

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No, you want smart creative people as your elite forces. Dedication, loyalty and a total lack of ability to quit are the other critical elements. You give them missions and get out of their way.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:12 pm

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kzt wrote:No, you want smart creative people as your elite forces. Dedication, loyalty and a total lack of ability to quit are the other critical elements. You give them missions and get out of their way.


Elite forces I agree and this applies to the Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines. But I got the impression that the Final War supersoldiers were not that.

Even though I have a hard time believing a soldier in a 30th century battlefield could be dumb or cannon fodder.
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:46 am

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kzt wrote:No, you want smart creative people as your elite forces. Dedication, loyalty and a total lack of ability to quit are the other critical elements. You give them missions and get out of their way.

You've just described the characters and overall synopsis of one of my favorite series. Christine Feehan's Ghostwalker series. Genre: The Paranormal.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Elite forces I agree and this applies to the Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines. But I got the impression that the Final War supersoldiers were not that.

Even though I have a hard time believing a soldier in a 30th century battlefield could be dumb or cannon fodder.

You forgot about the dumb Solarians in the battlefield that is space. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Mesan Genies outside the Onion
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:58 pm

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cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Elite forces I agree and this applies to the Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines. But I got the impression that the Final War supersoldiers were not that.

Even though I have a hard time believing a soldier in a 30th century battlefield could be dumb or cannon fodder.

You forgot about the dumb Solarians in the battlefield that is space. LOL


Not exactly. I'm not referring to arrogant people. The Solarians aboard their ships were technically-skilled people who could operate a 40th century warship powered by a fusion reactor and using gravity-manipulation fields. No one there was stupid. In fact, the average Solarian spacer was probably better educated than the average Peep one, given what we know of how the PN conducted maintenance and repairs. More so of StateSec ships.

But my point is that any military force worthy of its name in the 21st century, not to say in the 30th or 40th, invests a considerable amount of money in training its soldiers to operate high-tech equipment. You don't get 17-year-olds drafted and send two of them with a single rifle like the Soviets did at Stalingrad. We also know that the supersoldiers of the Final War were facing other types of enemies, including drones/remote piloted weapons.

So no, they were not dumb. Selected or engineered for a purpose, yes. And with considerable blind spots in their thinking, as we've seen with the male Scrags in Crown of Slaves.
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