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Relativity

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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:46 am

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cthia wrote:Treecat Experiment

If the maximum distance that a treecat can communicate is greater than the distance of the shortest line connecting two points on either side of a wormhole—which is simply folded space—can they communicate?

They are relatively the same distance apart.


Jonathan_S wrote:My guess is that wouldn't work - Honorverse wormholes don't seem to pass anything except ships under sail & hypergenerator. But it'd be worth a quick experiment.

Mind you, a treecat's mindvoice range appears to be only a few KM which means even if mindvoice passes through a wormhole like it was zero distance the 'cats would need to be deeply inside the departure and arrival lanes; well inside the grav eddy. So they'd pretty much have to stand in the middle of the road and block traffic to talk. :D

Still it seems simple enough to send a pair of ships, each carrying a treecat, towards a wormhole in close formation and see if the 'cats can still talk after the first ship jumps. In the unlikely event that it work you've learned something interesting and can start exploring if there's any way to make practical use of this scientific curiosity.

I think the wormholes also pass other energies, as they are being studied first, before use. Something is being measured.

If results = True, I'd like to see it used in storyline as the only method left to send a message thru. Or the only secure method. Perhaps against the MA in the Darius system. I agree it's worth the experiment. Who knows, the wormhole itself might even increase their range.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:54 am

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cthia wrote:I think the wormholes also pass other energies, as they are being studied first, before use. Something is being measured.

What is being studied is the eddy pattern and strength (probably on the Alpha wall); not necessarily anything that is passing through. A hyperspace generator is required to pass through the wormhole, so I doubt the experiment would work; but there ia no harm is trying.
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:07 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I think the wormholes also pass other energies, as they are being studied first, before use. Something is being measured.

What is being studied is the eddy pattern and strength (probably on the Alpha wall); not necessarily anything that is passing through. A hyperspace generator is required to pass through the wormhole, so I doubt the experiment would work; but there ia no harm is trying.

From whence are the measurements obtained, from inside the Schwarzschild radius? Inside the radius the ship is subject to the wormhole's effect and will pass thru or be destroyed. From outside the radius the instruments shouldn't work.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:31 am

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cthia wrote:I think the wormholes also pass other energies, as they are being studied first, before use. Something is being measured.
tlb wrote:What is being studied is the eddy pattern and strength (probably on the Alpha wall); not necessarily anything that is passing through. A hyperspace generator is required to pass through the wormhole, so I doubt the experiment would work; but there ia no harm is trying.
cthia wrote:From whence are the measurements obtained, from inside the Schwarzschild radius? Inside the radius the ship is subject to the wormhole's effect and will pass thru or be destroyed. From outside the radius the instruments shouldn't work.


These are not Einsteinian Wormholes - there is a different mechanism at play. a ship can drive over a Honorverse wormhole in normal space and not realize it - or just feel some (otherwise) unwarranted grav turbulence. without the Hypergenerators and sails, an object cannot interact with the wormhole - let alone pass through it. However, ther are certain gravity patterns that are (usually) seen in coordination with the wormhole in normal space.
******
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:53 am

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:I think the wormholes also pass other energies, as they are being studied first, before use. Something is being measured.
tlb wrote:What is being studied is the eddy pattern and strength (probably on the Alpha wall); not necessarily anything that is passing through. A hyperspace generator is required to pass through the wormhole, so I doubt the experiment would work; but there ia no harm is trying.
cthia wrote:From whence are the measurements obtained, from inside the Schwarzschild radius? Inside the radius the ship is subject to the wormhole's effect and will pass thru or be destroyed. From outside the radius the instruments shouldn't work.



These are not Einsteinian Wormholes - there is a different mechanism at play. a ship can drive over a Honorverse wormhole in normal space and not realize it - or just feel some (otherwise) unwarranted grav turbulence. without the Hypergenerators and sails, an object cannot interact with the wormhole - let alone pass through it. However, ther are certain gravity patterns that are (usually) seen in coordination with the wormhole in normal space.

Thank you The-emile! Now I can simply drop years of qualms about Honorverse wormholes!

Considering that, even I doubt the experiment would work.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:04 am

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cthia wrote:From whence are the measurements obtained, from inside the Schwarzschild radius? Inside the radius the ship is subject to the wormhole's effect and will pass thru or be destroyed. From outside the radius the instruments shouldn't work.

Theemile wrote:These are not Einsteinian Wormholes - there is a different mechanism at play. a ship can drive over a Honorverse wormhole in normal space and not realize it - or just feel some (otherwise) unwarranted grav turbulence. without the Hypergenerators and sails, an object cannot interact with the wormhole - let alone pass through it. However, ther are certain gravity patterns that are (usually) seen in coordination with the wormhole in normal space.

cthia wrote:Thank you The-emile! Now I can simply drop years of qualms about Honorverse wormholes!

Considering that, even I doubt the experiment would work.

The Schwarzschild radius is something that applies to black-holes (which are only conjectured to be wormholes; without any particular basis, so far as I know). The Honorverse wormhole is a gravitation disturbance, that is not caused by a concentration of mass (therefore not a black-hole).
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Re: Relativity
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:29 am

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Theemile wrote:
These are not Einsteinian Wormholes - there is a different mechanism at play. a ship can drive over a Honorverse wormhole in normal space and not realize it - or just feel some (otherwise) unwarranted grav turbulence. without the Hypergenerators and sails, an object cannot interact with the wormhole - let alone pass through it. However, ther are certain gravity patterns that are (usually) seen in coordination with the wormhole in normal space.

I agree that they're not Einsteinian wormholes - but I'm not so sure a ship could safely drive over one. There's a strong enough grav sheer at the center of the wormhole enterance to shred drones[1]. It might be a ship, especially one under power, is sufficiently larger and tougher that it could survive that level of grav sheer with little to no damage; but I have my doubts.

But I also suspect that its grav sensors would detect that strong "turbulence" before it actually ran into it and it'd avoid that spot as a mater of course. (That said, simply given their location a ship's unlikely to be wandering around normal space where it might stumble across one - since if you don't know a wormhole's out there there's not much reason to be stooging along light hours beyond the hyper limit.)

[1] The Junction survey nailing down the not yet explored wormhole to Lynx expended a bunch of drones getting up-close grav force surveys because they'd hit the end and be destroyed.
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Re: Relativity
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:00 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:
These are not Einsteinian Wormholes - there is a different mechanism at play. a ship can drive over a Honorverse wormhole in normal space and not realize it - or just feel some (otherwise) unwarranted grav turbulence. without the Hypergenerators and sails, an object cannot interact with the wormhole - let alone pass through it. However, ther are certain gravity patterns that are (usually) seen in coordination with the wormhole in normal space.

I agree that they're not Einsteinian wormholes - but I'm not so sure a ship could safely drive over one. There's a strong enough grav sheer at the center of the wormhole enterance to shred drones[1]. It might be a ship, especially one under power, is sufficiently larger and tougher that it could survive that level of grav sheer with little to no damage; but I have my doubts.

But I also suspect that its grav sensors would detect that strong "turbulence" before it actually ran into it and it'd avoid that spot as a mater of course. (That said, simply given their location a ship's unlikely to be wandering around normal space where it might stumble across one - since if you don't know a wormhole's out there there's not much reason to be stooging along light hours beyond the hyper limit.)

[1] The Junction survey nailing down the not yet explored wormhole to Lynx expended a bunch of drones getting up-close grav force surveys because they'd hit the end and be destroyed.



OK, I'll append my comment to "run past the wormhole" from "run over", simply because if it was that easy to find, the lynx entrance would have been found years previously, merely by some poor civie ship accidently running over it (or a mine layer, or a patrolling LAC) - after all there is only so much space around the Manticore junction that the wormhole entrances can be in and the Junction is probably the most transited space in the universe that is not an orbital volume.

While some wormholes have massive gravity wells, it has also been said that some are virtually undectable.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Relativity
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:20 pm

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tlb wrote:The Schwarzschild radius is something that applies to black-holes (which are only conjectured to be wormholes; without any particular basis, so far as I know). The Honorverse wormhole is a gravitation disturbance, that is not caused by a concentration of mass (therefore not a black-hole).


Strictly speaking, everything has a Schwarzschild Radius. But it's only for black holes that this radius is bigger than the physical object itself. For everything else, it's just a theoretical value with little consequence. If you squeezed that object so that all its mass was present in a radius equal to or smaller than its Schwarzschild Radius, it would become a black hole.

I use this site when I am reading sci-fi and need to confirm the technobabble about black holes, like the evaporation time or the amount of energy in the form of Hawking Radiation. If you input a mass of 1 Earth mass, it'll show the Schwarzschild radius to be 0.88 cm. If you want to make a BH out of an Invictus-class SD, you'd have to compress it to 13.3 am (attometres), but it would put out 4.4 TW of power and would last nearly 2 million years.

As for whether a wormhole could exist through a BH... one of the episodes of PBS Space Time was showing how theory says that would be possible with a ring singularity (spinning black hole). See https://www.pbs.org/video/mapping-the-m ... se-ymock6/
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:34 pm

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tlb wrote:The Schwarzschild radius is something that applies to black-holes (which are only conjectured to be wormholes; without any particular basis, so far as I know). The Honorverse wormhole is a gravitation disturbance, that is not caused by a concentration of mass (therefore not a black-hole).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Strictly speaking, everything has a Schwarzschild Radius. But it's only for black holes that this radius is bigger than the physical object itself. For everything else, it's just a theoretical value with little consequence. If you squeezed that object so that all its mass was present in a radius equal to or smaller than its Schwarzschild Radius, it would become a black hole.

I was aware of that, so I should have said "The Schwarzschild radius is something that is only of consequence for black-holes". The point that I wanted to make was that the Honorverse wormhole is not created by a concentration of mass and so is NOT what we know as a black-hole.

If any structure is destroyed by crossing the Schwarzschild Radius of a black-hole in our universe; then the theoretical possibility of a wormhole existing there is irrelevant for transportation purposes.
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