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Relativity

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Re: Relativity
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:38 pm

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tlb wrote:Is it possible that the Alpha Wall provides the frame of reference in the Honorverse? Would that help explain the way the spider drive works?


That's what I'm figuring and the Alpha Wall is stationary with regard to the dominant mass in the area.
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Re: Relativity
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:22 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
tlb wrote:Is it possible that the Alpha Wall provides the frame of reference in the Honorverse? Would that help explain the way the spider drive works?


That's what I'm figuring and the Alpha Wall is stationary with regard to the dominant mass in the area.


I agree too. The Alpha Wall is the thing whose frame of reference the bleed of transiting is calculated against. This implies the Alpha Wall is a physical, tangible thing, not just an abstract / metaphorical thing that separates normal space from hyperspace, like the line of a shadow. Makes sense, since the spider drive can grab it.

Also note that absolute time implies an absolute frame of reference. But I'm not entirely convinced about absolute time. I'd need to sit down and draw some light cones in a Fermi Diagram with three or more observers moving at different speeds (one of them FTL) to see if you can or not violate causality. The FTL traveler never ends up in their own past; the question is whether one of the observers can observe a violation in their frame of reference. The very good graphics in the PBS Space Time video I linked to are the basis of this.

I'm also wondering if there's a way to go further: what else is that that in the same frame of reference to? The options are:

  • local star's frame of reference. This is important because the hyperlimit moves along with the star (or planet, for that matter) and the hyperlimit affects the transition into and out of alpha;
  • some local distance that includes anywhere between the local star system to millions of stars (this w would be important for binary star systems, for example);
  • some galactic distance or even extra galactic
  • the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) frame of reference;
  • the Cosmic Neutrino Background (CνB) frame of reference -- whether it's the same as the CMB is unknown today;
  • the Cosmic Graviton Background, if such a thing exists

All of those are within ±200 km/s of one another, though, so they may not be important at all. Even in the hypervelocity star I mentioned before.
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:00 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's not what I meant, though of course every time you move, the universe moved in by the same amount and opposite direction...[1]

I meant that several "drive technologies" in Sci-Fi are about space-time warp, where you don't accelerate the mass of the ship, but you make spacetime move. Starfire's drive fields are like that and were actually what I was mostly thinking of here, not Star Trek's Warp Drive, though they apply to. The fact that a Star Trek Warp Drive can go superluminal and Starfire's Drive Fields can't is a distinction without a difference.

We know spacetime can be warped, as we live inside one gravity well that is circling around another, bigger gravity well. We know spacetime can also expand faster than light, which is why the notion of "Observable Universe"[2] exists in the first place and we know there is stuff beyond it. What we don't currently know is how to make local space time do that. Alcubierre's equations require negative energy, which is also something we don't have. And besides, according to Einstein, any FTL implies time travel to the past, so we'd also need an update on Relativity.

But this wasn't about FTL, only about real-space, Reactionless Drive System (RDS).


[1][2] "Walk in circles around the room and your entire now-slice tilts crazily like a ship deck in a storm. [..] the 'present' at the edge of the Observable Universe veers back and forth by a couple of centuries every time you switch direction." - Matt O'Dowd in PBS Space Time - Do the Past and Future Exist? (last week's episode)

Nice post.

We also don't know what immediate or long term effect it will have on local space-time. We will be meddling with the fabric of space without being aware of any consequences. Star Trek tries to acknowledge that by limiting casual travel to Warp 3 except in cases of dire "emergencies" because it damages the fabric of space.

Does the future exist? The Bible says God says yes. I propose that the whole future and man's time was written as soon as the first moment of man's life began. Philosophical existentialism if you want to open that can of worms. For God to know each man's days before he is even born, suggests that a lot of hints or even answers to man's conundrums can be gleaned from the Bible. Quantum mechanics? God claims to be in more places simultaneously.

I have theories of my own which posit that Einstein's failure to find a TOE (an all encompassing equation, a theory of everything) lies in his dismissal of one very important variable in his equations. God. I have oftentimes tried to spark conversations on this most elusive topic, to no avail. They always get shut down. The title of the thread was blamed. "God Exists." 'Tis a bold statement to make amidst unbelievers. But 'tis a statement that should be accepted coming from the faithful. I pondered trying once again with what I wanted to be the ultimate goal of the previous religious thread, but, alas, it never made it to that point.

Namely, "What if God does exist?"

What would that do for mathematics and the sciences.

Negative energy and dark matter exists in the form of a fallen angel.

Oftentimes we fail in the application of what we've learned as a species. Try the application of science and mathematics to religion and vice versa. It is a very cerebral path to follow for certain. However, truth, absolute truth, may be partly hidden under the most innocent "leaf."

My pet project is the Schwarzschild radius of a Black Hole. The equations speak to you.

Man is afraid of what he doesn't understand, and he distrusts what he cannot see or feel with his reasoned senses.

We are blind because we do not see. We do not see because we keep our eyes closed. We keep our eyes closed before we do not want to see a truth that is different from how we envision it.

Man's ultimate equations will always elude him until he seeks absolute truth at all costs even unto his own death. In death, we find absolute truth and everlasting life may be born.

But I digress, cerebrally.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:35 am

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cthia wrote:We also don't know what immediate or long term effect it will have on local space-time. We will be meddling with the fabric of space without being aware of any consequences. Star Trek tries to acknowledge that by limiting casual travel to Warp 3 except in cases of dire "emergencies" because it damages the fabric of space.

Does the future exist? The Bible says God says yes. I propose that the whole future and man's time was written as soon as the first moment of man's life began. Philosophical existentialism if you want to open that can of worms. For God to know each man's days before he is even born, suggests that a lot of hints or even answers to man's conundrums can be gleaned from the Bible.

But we are not meddling with the fabric of space; because that technology only exists in fiction, where any negative effects can be written away. Will we ever get to the point where such actions are real or will we find another way to eradicate ourselves first?

If God is outside time and space, which are God's creation; then you are thinking small. You should propose that the whole future and time was written as soon as the first moment of the universe began. My problem with this statement and yours is that it eliminates "free will". Now the universe can go its merry way and mankind would not know the difference, if there were no "free will"; but the moral dimension of life would be completely different.
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:17 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:We also don't know what immediate or long term effect it will have on local space-time. We will be meddling with the fabric of space without being aware of any consequences. Star Trek tries to acknowledge that by limiting casual travel to Warp 3 except in cases of dire "emergencies" because it damages the fabric of space.

Does the future exist? The Bible says God says yes. I propose that the whole future and man's time was written as soon as the first moment of man's life began. Philosophical existentialism if you want to open that can of worms. For God to know each man's days before he is even born, suggests that a lot of hints or even answers to man's conundrums can be gleaned from the Bible.

But we are not meddling with the fabric of space; because that technology only exists in fiction, where any negative effects can be written away. Will we ever get to the point where such actions are real or will we find another way to eradicate ourselves first?

If God is outside time and space, which are God's creation; then you are thinking small. You should propose that the whole future and time was written as soon as the first moment of the universe began. My problem with this statement and yours is that it eliminates "free will". Now the universe can go its merry way and mankind would not know the difference, if there were no "free will"; but the moral dimension of life would be completely different.

Indeed! Brilliant tlb. But I wanted posters to figure that out for themselves. My tenure on the forums has taught me that baby steps are better. Now to go a bit further. The future of the universe always existed because it existed within an infinite being. God conceived it. It is so. Mankind is simply a singularity in God's frame of reference, whose event horizon man cannot transcend without divine intervention and absolute enlightenment.

Does it . . . eliminate free will? That is a recursive argument that goes back to our original proposition of exist-entialism. And it is the entire crux inside the very controversial topic which angels and even pastors and even churches and even people fear to tread. The Doctrine of the Elect.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:38 am

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cthia wrote:The future of the universe always existed because it existed within an infinite being. God conceived it. It is so. Mankind is simply a singularity in God's frame of reference, whose event horizon man cannot transcend without divine intervention and absolute enlightenment.

To quote Wikipedia, George Berkeley (Bishop of Cloyne) "believed that God is not the distant engineer of Newtonian machinery that in the fullness of time led to the growth of a tree in the university quadrangle. Rather, the perception of the tree is an idea that God's mind has produced in the mind, and the tree continues to exist in the quadrangle when "nobody" is there, simply because God is an infinite mind that perceives all". Basically the universe is a play acting out in God's mind.

I have no problem with "election", if it arises by humanity's actions; but if the number of the elect is fixed and known from the beginning of time, then the game has been "fixed".
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:55 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:The future of the universe always existed because it existed within an infinite being. God conceived it. It is so. Mankind is simply a singularity in God's frame of reference, whose event horizon man cannot transcend without divine intervention and absolute enlightenment.

To quote Wikipedia, George Berkeley (Bishop of Cloyne) "believed that God is not the distant engineer of Newtonian machinery that in the fullness of time led to the growth of a tree in the university quadrangle. Rather, the perception of the tree is an idea that God's mind has produced in the mind, and the tree continues to exist in the quadrangle when "nobody" is there, simply because God is an infinite mind that perceives all". Basically the universe is a play acting out in God's mind.

I have no problem with "election", if it arises by humanity's actions; but if the number of the elect is fixed and known from the beginning of time, then the game has been "fixed".

It has been fixed! It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting life. It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting condemnation in the pits of hell. God warns everyone that in the end it will all come down to those two choices, and within that it will contain all that matter. What more can you want? Mercy, plus your freedom to choose is upheld.

It is said that death has a way of focusing your mind. In the end, your faith or lack thereof is all that will matter.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Relativity
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:13 am

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cthia wrote:It has been fixed! It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting life. It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting condemnation in the pits of hell.

But if that "choice" is foreordained, then it is not a choice at all. If there is no "free will", then the destination of heaven or hell has already been determined and was set at the point of the creation of the universe.
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Re: Relativity
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:44 am

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cthia wrote:We also don't know what immediate or long term effect it will have on local space-time. We will be meddling with the fabric of space without being aware of any consequences. Star Trek tries to acknowledge that by limiting casual travel to Warp 3 except in cases of dire "emergencies" because it damages the fabric of space.


Warp 5, not 3, TNG 7th season episode "Force of Nature" (and I remember even the episode name without having to google for it). That speed limit lasted less than one season, because the next year we saw USS Voyager launched with "folding warp drive," whatever that is, but its warp nacelles moved during the opening sequence in a nice FX. Voyager not only travelled frequently above Warp 5, it could reach Warp 9.975. About billion km/s.

This is an example of writers coming up with a plot without thinking of the consequences.

Does the future exist? The Bible says God says yes. I propose that the whole future and man's time was written as soon as the first moment of man's life began. Philosophical existentialism if you want to open that can of worms. For God to know each man's days before he is even born, suggests that a lot of hints or even answers to man's conundrums can be gleaned from the Bible. Quantum mechanics? God claims to be in more places simultaneously.


I'll leave the theological discussion aside. I was raised being told that there are three things you don't discuss at the dinner table: religion, politics, and football (and by that we meant the variety played with feet).

Interestingly, the very next episode of PBS Space Time from the one I linked above is called Is the Future Predetermined (by quantum mechanics). Matt O'Dowd argues that, from a purely physical point of view, it isn't, regardless of which interpretation of quantum mechanics you subscribe to. He doesn't go into metaphysics and I won't go either.

I have theories of my own which posit that Einstein's failure to find a TOE (an all encompassing equation, a theory of everything) lies in his dismissal of one very important variable in his equations. God. I have oftentimes tried to spark conversations on this most elusive topic, to no avail. They always get shut down. The title of the thread was blamed. "God Exists." 'Tis a bold statement to make amidst unbelievers. But 'tis a statement that should be accepted coming from the faithful. I pondered trying once again with what I wanted to be the ultimate goal of the previous religious thread, but, alas, it never made it to that point.


We're skipping a step. Before we get to Theory of Everything, we need the Grand Unified Theory and we don't have that yet either. TOE is supposed to merge Relativity and Quantum. There are a lot of brilliant minds trying that and we're still unable to come up with a theory.

This thread had also made me ponder this: why does gravity propagate at the speed of light, if gravity is a fake force that we perceive due to the curvature of space-time, when space-time can expand faster than light? (We can also say that light propagates at the speed of gravity).

Namely, "What if God does exist?"

What would that do for mathematics and the sciences.


Until there's a quantifiable measurement, the existence is meaningless for mathematics and sciences. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's faith here. I'm simply saying that if you can't put something into a mathematical model and predict cause and consequence from it, even if statistically, the presence or absence of that something has no effect in the result.

Let me apply the same for a more "physical" concept: multiverse. By definition, anything outside the universe can't affect us (and even some things inside the universe can't, if they're beyond the particle horizon). If nothing that happens there can ever affect us, then it might as well not exist and you can ignore it in formulae and models.

You may be right that there's something more that we need to add to our equations. In fact, no one doubts that you're right: the simple fact that our two best theories can't be merged indicates there's something we're missing. The problem is our inability to quantify that "something else" and to devise experiments to measure it and its effects.

But I digress, cerebrally.


Yes.
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Re: Relativity
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:12 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:It has been fixed! It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting life. It has been fixed for those who so choose to have everlasting condemnation in the pits of hell.

But if that "choice" is foreordained, then it is not a choice at all. If there is no "free will", then the destination of heaven or hell has already been determined and was set at the point of the creation of the universe.

Foreordained or predestination are other cans of worms. But both are irrelevant. God knows which path you will take. He knows how you will spend your freedom of choice. He knows if you will be for or against him because He enjoys a God's-eye view of the Universe. Wouldn't you choose a horse you already know will win? In a way, treecats do the same with their insight.

Some people argue the point further by saying that God's lack of choosing you causes your sin, as if God's interaction skews or taints the results. But I always argue the point that God putting his reservation in ahead of time in no way affects man's ultimate choice. God choosing the winners ahead of time is a passive affectation that only becomes active in the end.

If God happens to know you better than you know yourself then why be surprised if he knows where you'll be in the end. My family members could do that when I was young, "We knew where you would be."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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