Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

Expansion of the Empire: where to?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by tlb   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:09 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Brigade XO wrote:What kicked the Aligmenet into high gear (and it's long term plans very out of wack) was that new terminus of the Manticore Junction which is only a couple of light years from Lynx. While Haven was anti-slavery we have to consider that in the last 30 or 40 years Manticore has been of much grater involvement going after and enforcing anti-slavery laws.

It did sort of sound like that by the time that the Alignment decided to rush Oyster Bay, they had decided that taking out Manticore's (and Grayson's) infrastructure because having the Peeps defeated and Manticore become the one which would eventualy confront the SL was not going to meet the expectations of the plan. Peoples Republic of Haven would be a much better tool to break the SL (and get destroyed in doing it) leaving the RF to pick up the pieces and bring on the Ascendence of the Alignment as the pupetmaster of humanity.

Even if the Lynx terminus had not been found, it seems that the Detweiler Plan is already off track; because the Peoples' Republic has already disappeared. Once Haven's constitutional government is restored, the Malign have a better chance of getting Manticore to fight the Solarian League than getting Haven to do it; because Haven has no direct contact with the League.

The whole reason that Manticore has had more effect on the slavery trade, is precisely because of Manticore's involvement in Silesia. The closest that Haven comes to the League is by way of Torch, Erewhon and the Maya Sector.
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:10 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Brigade XO wrote:Mesa is relativly close to the Talbott Quadrant.
Visagoth is the closest wormhole to Mesa. Visagoth is (well, named but we are not sure it's yet a disclosed/announced member of the RF) Visagoth is very anti-genetic slavery which means that officilly would not let slavers use their wormhole but not clear if there was some level of smuggling going on. Mostly we see ships carrying slaves (and probably other things) head anywhere other than Visagoth to get -eventualy- where they need to go.


What kicked the Aligmenet into high gear (and it's long term plans very out of wack) was that new terminus of the Manticore Junction which is only a couple of light years from Lynx. While Haven was anti-slavery we have to consider that in the last 30 or 40 years Manticore has been of much grater involvement going after and enforcing anti-slavery laws.

It did sort of sound like that by the time that the Alignment decided to rush Oyster Bay, they had decided that taking out Manticore's (and Grayson's) infrastructure because having the Peeps defeated and Manticore become the one which would eventualy confront the SL was not going to meet the expectations of the plan. Peoples Republic of Haven would be a much better tool to break the SL (and get destroyed in doing it) leaving the RF to pick up the pieces and bring on the Ascendence of the Alignment as the pupetmaster of humanity.

But then comes the Lynx terminus and Manticore was ever so more an alternitive to OFS to those systems in the Cluster. The last thing the Alignment needed was Manticore to have a solid presence with several systems as part of it rathern then "just" trading partners. The biggest reason was the one they actualy helped be pushed forward when they started all the manipulation with Monica, then New Tuscany and manuvering Byng AND Crandall---remember they really were almost simultaneous missions framed as training etc maneuvers- to stop Manticore. Monica was the 1st ploy to grab the terminus and then bring OFS in with FF to "own" it. Then to shatter that little cluster of systems and use essentilay Crandall to take them and then go grap the terminus.
Why? To keep Manticore the hell away from that side of the shell/verge of the League and away from Mesa. We see what Henke did when it became apparent that Mesa was up to it's eyeballs in everything happing that was going badly in Talbott Quadrant even if many of the military actors were SLN.
Albrect just couldn't keep himself from being too cleaver and using large blunt interments to deal with this new developemnt. If he hadn't done that he might have gotten another 20 or more years with Manticore way to busy elsewhere to decide to send a fleet directly to Mesa.

Ah well.



A Couple of light years? The Lynx terminus was something like 200 light years from Mesa. So the Manticorians were close, yes, closer than before, but not next door. And more importantly, would not have gone charging at Mesa if it were not for the machinations of the Malign in Talbott and the greater war. Beowulf and Manticore had had the ability to project sufficient power to take Mesa whenever they wanted, yet never did, partly due to realpolitik, by mostly because they never had a reason or desire to let circumstances rise to that level.

Talk about creating a self fulfilling prophesy!
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:42 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:A Couple of light years? The Lynx terminus was something like 200 light years from Mesa. So the Manticorians were close, yes, closer than before, but not next door. And more importantly, would not have gone charging at Mesa if it were not for the machinations of the Malign in Talbott and the greater war. Beowulf and Manticore had had the ability to project sufficient power to take Mesa whenever they wanted, yet never did, partly due to realpolitik, by mostly because they never had a reason or desire to let circumstances rise to that level.

Talk about creating a self fulfilling prophesy!


Indeed. This has really bothered me for a while. This part of the plan completely backfired. They rushed into deploying a plan that wasn't ready, poked the hornet's nest, and provoked Henke and Tourville into conquering Mesa.

And then I was reading Brigade's post just now and it occurred to me... RFC does not tell us everything in the books.

Could there be another reason why the MAlign had to get Manticore out of the Talbott and Madras Sectors? Like, some important MAlign outpost or base in the region? Or a wormhole terminus?
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:26 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12869
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:23 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?


Which Terminus?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:29 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12869
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?


Which Terminus?

Any of them. They can't leave their system. Having to remain on one side of a door without opening it is beyond the capability of humans. And, who will escort their freighters?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:34 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:A Couple of light years? The Lynx terminus was something like 200 light years from Mesa. So the Manticorians were close, yes, closer than before, but not next door. And more importantly, would not have gone charging at Mesa if it were not for the machinations of the Malign in Talbott and the greater war. Beowulf and Manticore had had the ability to project sufficient power to take Mesa whenever they wanted, yet never did, partly due to realpolitik, by mostly because they never had a reason or desire to let circumstances rise to that level.

Talk about creating a self fulfilling prophesy!


Indeed. This has really bothered me for a while. This part of the plan completely backfired. They rushed into deploying a plan that wasn't ready, poked the hornet's nest, and provoked Henke and Tourville into conquering Mesa.

And then I was reading Brigade's post just now and it occurred to me... RFC does not tell us everything in the books.

Could there be another reason why the MAlign had to get Manticore out of the Talbott and Madras Sectors? Like, some important MAlign outpost or base in the region? Or a wormhole terminus?


Darius or the Twins is in the Talbott Quadrant, or nearby? That's wild speculation, but they have to be somewhere, don't they? It would explain the paranoia, and how quickly they were able to respond to events there - they would have the inside OOD loop with the Felix wormhole and Streak boats.

I know of no evidence that you are correct, but also no evidence to disprove. Frankly, it's the best theory which fits the paranoia we saw. Could that also have been the source of the pirates that took Van Dort's family in a continued bid to destabilize the quadrant?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4155
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?

Theemile wrote:Which Terminus?

cthia wrote:Any of them. They can't leave their system. Having to remain on one side of a door without opening it is beyond the capability of humans. And, who will escort their freighters?


They can't leave SL space, not SL systems. As long as the terminus (and wormhole) is associated with an SL system, why would they not be able to police it?

And beyond the attempt to force the closed wormhole at Zunker, when have we ever seen a SLN ship escort a freighter?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:47 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12869
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?

Theemile wrote:Which Terminus?

cthia wrote:Any of them. They can't leave their system. Having to remain on one side of a door without opening it is beyond the capability of humans. And, who will escort their freighters?


They can't leave SL space, not SL systems. As long as the terminus (and wormhole) is associated with an SL system, why would they not be able to police it?

And beyond the attempt to force the closed wormhole at Zunker, when have we ever seen a SLN ship escort a freighter?

Do forgive me. This should have gone into the cornering the market thread. Please go there.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Expansion of the Empire: where to?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:06 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:Darius or the Twins is in the Talbott Quadrant, or nearby? That's wild speculation, but they have to be somewhere, don't they? It would explain the paranoia, and how quickly they were able to respond to events there - they would have the inside OOD loop with the Felix wormhole and Streak boats.

I know of no evidence that you are correct, but also no evidence to disprove. Frankly, it's the best theory which fits the paranoia we saw. Could that also have been the source of the pirates that took Van Dort's family in a continued bid to destabilize the quadrant?


I don't think they'd have bothered with Van Dort then. Years before the Lynx Terminus was opened, the Talbott Cluster was completely unimportant. Those were probably honest-to-God pirates -- as much as pirates can be honest, that is. You know what I mean.

As for there being some asset in the region that they rushed to protect, I think it makes sense. It would explain why they brought attention to themselves. Even if the Monican plot had worked out and those 11 BCs had seized the terminus, the RMN would have done something. Bardasano and Anisimovna's fingerprints were all over the plan, they were known to President Roberto Tyler of Monica as well as Commissioner Verrochio and Vice-Commissioner Hongbo of the Madras Sector. The chance that their contribution would leak was great. Even if not, they doubled down by sending Anisimovna to New Tuscany, openly. Her cover was that of a member of the Manpower Board of Directors, which is a huge flashing sign pointing to Mesa.

We can't know what that asset could be. It could be Darius, it could be the Twins or one of the other two termini of the Felix Wormhole Junction. It could be Mannerheim or one of the RF systems.

Stepping outside the universe, it's equally likely that RFC hadn't thought of a reason for this. We do know, as I said, he likes to thinks things ahead of time and just not tell us about it. But this was exactly the plot advancement brought on by the MAlign becoming the antagonist in Crown of Slaves. We know he had to accelerate the plot and he may not have had the luxury to give reasons why the MAlign would do such a risky thing. In the video interviews I've seen with him, he's said more than once he had not predicted all the consequences of this change.

Of course, he's intelligent and can always retcon something.
Top

Return to Honorverse