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Collin's assassination list

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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:19 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:So I'm far from convinced that getting the two leaders would actually have improved the outcome for Saint Just, or at least for Haven in general.


I agree with you on all points. Saint-Just was reacting out of lack of options. He was only hoping for a temporary respite due to the chaos that would ensue in both governments until he came up with something else to buy him more time again.

The only way for him and the PRH to survive would be to effectively deploy comparable technology. We know by this time that the PN had been developing their own pod-layers, but they couldn't have known about the LACs yet or the MDMs. As I've just written in the "Andermani Blunder" thread, a pod-layer firing SDMs is not a match against an SD firing MDMs from tubes. Against an MDM pod-laying SD(P), the PN was twice outmatched. Protect those SD(P)s with wings of LACs and nothing will get through, not even by accident. So when Caparelli informed Beth after Buttercup was launched saying "Haven has lost the war," he was speaking true.

That means Saint-Just needed more than two years of R&D to be able to fight back, and that's assuming that he did the right thing and put the right people in the job (paranoid as he was, we know he'd never give Shannon the job). There's no way the chaos after Operation Hassan could give him that much time. That's why I am saying he needed a second step after Hassan and it turned out to be the cease fire.

House of Steel, ch. 'December 1914 PD' wrote:"Your Majesty, generalizing from a single operation is usually as dangerous as it is foolish. In this instance, however, I think the conclusion is inescapable. We will, of course, provide you with a detailed analysis of Admiral White Haven's report as soon as there's been time to prepare one, but the principal aspects of that analysis are already clear. And so is the central conclusion—the People's Republic of Haven has just lust the war."

[...] "Thanks to your father's initiatives and your uncle's energy and inspiration, our fleet already outclassed the Peoples[sic] Navy in every aspect of war-fighting technology, even before Ghost Rider. Now, with the new multidrive missiles and the pod-layer capital ships actually in service, they can't even reply effectively to our fire. For all intents and purposes, their warships have just become targets, not threats, and I see no possible way for them to overcome their technological inferiority before we destroy their entire existing fleet."

It was the First Space Lord's turn to draw a deep breath, as if steeling himself for what he was about to say.

"Your Majesty, in my considered opinion as First Space Lord, the Manticoran Alliance will be in position to dictate terms of surrender to the People's Republic of Haven within the next four to six T-months."

(bold mine)
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:35 pm

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St. Just is gloating that he DID get Manticore to spend vast amounts of time "discussing the shape of the confernce table"...and North Korea did exactly the same thing at the truce that stopped the Korean War---which is not formaly over. There is still a "truce", North Korea hasn't signed any peace treaty. Such is the crap that you can get into with deplomacy when one side really only wants to buy time.
St. Just also made a vast miscalculation when he decided that, since he now had a truce and it was being dragged out just they way he wanted it too, that he could dispence with all those military leaders which he needed to at least slow down the Manticorian drive on Haven because he thought he would probably get a couple of years of "truce" and rearm with what they were now building at Bolthole and sent the courier to the SS commander to collect Tourville and friends and bring them back to Haven. That was going to be a one -way trip and Thiesman (having been tipped off) knows how all that is going to end including with him getting shot as well. So he strikes 1st. That Sharon managed to apply her skills to get the SS ships out where she was deployed to self destruct, let Thiesman succeed in the overthrow of the PRH.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:22 am

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Would the Salamander's offspring be on the list now? Certainly later. But would the MA have been so heartless to assassinate them yesterday, simply as a way to incapacitate Honor? Remember what her loss of Tankersley did to her before she was finally supplied a name and a location for revenge.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:40 pm

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cthia wrote:Would the Salamander's offspring be on the list now? Certainly later. But would the MA have been so heartless to assassinate them yesterday, simply as a way to incapacitate Honor? Remember what her loss of Tankersley did to her before she was finally supplied a name and a location for revenge.


Certainly it might be a way to harm her but clearly you haven't considered the downside. You remember, all the potential unintended consequences that can show up.
First the assassin(s) would have to get past various levels of protection which are going to include Treecats (in case you forgot they would be involved) and the examination of the bodies of the assassins will provide some information.

Then there is the reaction of various people to the attack on -at the moment- children at the range of her son, sibliings and Emily & Hamish's heir. Children....so a fair amount of the SEM would be unhappy and then there is Grayson. Grayson's military (and others) reacted "poorly" to Honor's reported execution by the Peeps. Killing her children--this is Grayson we are talking about here-- is going to take that up a notch.

So, even presuming that Honor herself is killed in the attack on the children, there are going to be even more people- with suitable motivation- looking for answers and culprits.

And if Honor isn't killed......she just might "suggest" that she be allowed to interview any possible agent of member of the alignment with Nimitz as primary assistant. Don't think an anesthetic will be used and it.

Elizabeth didn't push her to stay after the "trip" to Sol and sorting out the SL/SLN. At the event of an attack on her children/sibs, it won't be the Salamander and more, it will be Dragon and her focus will be on finding and eliminating (in the Treecat sence of the term) the Alignment.

One really analytical personification of Death going hunting. Helped by the likes of Zilwicki, Cachet, Jeremy X and others. Probably Shannon Foraker climbing on-board to apply her talents to Alignment tech as well.

You know, the kind of thing anybody as smart and intelegent as the Alighment leadershipis supposed to be should probably consider a really really really bad idea to provoke like that. She breaks things....like big ambitious plans....and what could possibly go wrong with being the ones who killed HER children?
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:41 pm

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cthia wrote:Would the Salamander's offspring be on the list now? Certainly later. But would the MA have been so heartless to assassinate them yesterday, simply as a way to incapacitate Honor? Remember what her loss of Tankersley did to her before she was finally supplied a name and a location for revenge.


You do remember what she did to the person who assassinated Tankersley and the person who ordered the assassination, right?

If you can get near enough her children to threaten them, then you can get near enough Honor and Hamish.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:31 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Would the Salamander's offspring be on the list now? Certainly later. But would the MA have been so heartless to assassinate them yesterday, simply as a way to incapacitate Honor? Remember what her loss of Tankersley did to her before she was finally supplied a name and a location for revenge.


You do remember what she did to the person who assassinated Tankersley and the person who ordered the assassination, right?

If you can get near enough her children to threaten them, then you can get near enough Honor and Hamish.

I sure do, but only after her very own Ghosthunters helped her by seeking him out, after they themselves were given a tip by a scorned employee???

Honor and the whole damn galaxy can be mad as hellfire, but without a solid lock on a target, that rage will only burn itself out with time. One positive side effect of prolong is how well it extends the freshness date on hate. But with the youth inheriting the worlds, how can revenge not go stale? The MA seem to have cornered the market on preservatives which keep hatred fresh.

My hope is kept fresh by the promise the Salamander made of collecting on a certain bill the MA ran up with her.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:02 am

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:idea:

Within the MA, assassinations can only travel uphill. Culls, like excrement, travel downhill.

Downwind always stinks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by jtg452   » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:37 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:
Grayson's military (and others) reacted "poorly" to Honor's reported execution by the Peeps. Killing her children--this is Grayson we are talking about here-- is going to take that up a notch.


You do have a gift for understatement.

Yanakov was shouting, "Harrington And No Mercy!" when they thought that she was dead.

Hamish was concerned that they just wouldn't take prisoners at all, remember? As you know, surrenders have to be accepted and the GSN wasn't feeling charitable at the time.

What do you think they would be like if both she and her kids- including her MALE HEIR- were gone?

You do have a point about all that anger not having a target to focus on- but we are talking about Graysons here.

If/when the MA sticks their head up in a century or two, the Graysons will remember and pick up right where they left off.

Graysons have that whole feudist thing down as pat as a Highland Scot or an Appalachian hillbilly and they are patient.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Captain Golding   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:47 am

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I get you on the Grayson attitude but does the MAlign? THink about all the bits we've seen in their thinking and how often do we see them considering Grayson as anything other than a Manticoran Puppet ? (after all as a MAlign client it would be a puppet state and that's the way they think.)

Grayson has come out of nowhere as far as the long term plans of the MAlign and as a closed feudal society would not have had much insertion of agents in the past. Corruption probably does exist but again before HotQ it would not have been a concern so not a target. As a production center from Manicore Blackbird had to go in Oyster Bay but politically ??? I suspect that apart from Sensor collections almost all MAlign inteligence on Grayson would have been collected via agents in Manicore and filtered through a civilan / Manicore viewpoint.

So yes I could see Colin making some very bad choices where Grayson sensibilities are concerned.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Theemile   » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:41 pm

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Captain Golding wrote:I get you on the Grayson attitude but does the MAlign? THink about all the bits we've seen in their thinking and how often do we see them considering Grayson as anything other than a Manticoran Puppet ? (after all as a MAlign client it would be a puppet state and that's the way they think.)

Grayson has come out of nowhere as far as the long term plans of the MAlign and as a closed feudal society would not have had much insertion of agents in the past. Corruption probably does exist but again before HotQ it would not have been a concern so not a target. As a production center from Manicore Blackbird had to go in Oyster Bay but politically ??? I suspect that apart from Sensor collections almost all MAlign inteligence on Grayson would have been collected via agents in Manicore and filtered through a civilan / Manicore viewpoint.

So yes I could see Colin making some very bad choices where Grayson sensibilities are concerned.


You are correct, With Grayson's isolation from the greater Galactic society pre-dating Leonard Detweiler by almost 1000 years and running right up to recent times, any insertion of a Malaign agent would have to be within the last 50 years or so - and more likely the last 25. Beyond Manticore - the next most probable source of MAlaign influence is from the Hades Exiles - Many Legislaturists were sent to Hades, and the Malign had the Legislaturists thoroughly invaded with generational agents - some of which may have been sent to Hades - and thus could have made their way to Grayson. (or Manticore, or into Exile with Parnell).

Immigrants from any other source would be new, rare, and would stand out in society.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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