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What happens to all that debris?

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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:16 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:Certainly the capacitors that supply energy to the weapons in a warship need to be fully charged before used in battle; no one questions that.

cthia wrote:You are missing the point, tlb. The nominal state of capacitors is at full charge. You are not always firing grasers thus demanding maximum load. So, absent battle, there will always be a net surplus of power being fed to the capacitors. Therefore, barring battle and the creek don't rise the capacitors in most systems will eventually reach a fully-charged state.

As you can see, I have not missed THAT point. Since is the only point you want to talk about, I have conceded that the capacitors that supply the energy to the weapons on a warship are kept at full charge.

The only point "I" want to talk about? It seemed necessary to reiterate it because of your post. If it wasn't necessary for me to reiterate it, then what was the reason for your last post? Since we all know the capacitors can't remain at full charge when battle is raging or while kick starting a wedge.

At any rate, let's turn up the heat . . .

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:32 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's part of it. Yes, with a true AI, you should not see a difference between a human and an AI.

cthia wrote:Indeed, if it is true AI there IS NO difference except the outer shell.

The arrogance of man leads him to think he can create life, but he doesn't believe that an entity could have already beaten him to it.

I would be very surprised if anyone working on AI thinks that they are trying to create life. They are trying to create programs that can do certain specific things that humans can do. For specific instances (some games, for example), the programs can perform better. I am not aware of any significant progress in general purpose intelligence.

I am not surprised you feel that way. Many of my colleagues make the same mistake. Regardless of whether anyone working on True AI thinks that he is trying to create life is beside the point, because that is exactly what he is attempting. Whether he realizes it or not.

The definition of TRUE INTELLIGENCE - be it artificial or not - has to default to INTELLIGENCE.

TRUE AI = TRUE INTELLIGENCE

INTELLIGENCE = LIFE

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:07 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:You can only design black or white decision making capabilities into a reactor used aboard a warship, minus the gray areas that need to be decided by gray matter.
[cut]
The reactor will be programmed for black & white operation only!


I disagree. Software is extremely powerful these days, especially since we added AI and Machine Learning in the last decade.

Which is something that David hasn't adapted to. Software and computing in general in the Honorverse seems to not have progressed much from the early 2000s. I guess for me it's similar to what physicists feel while reading about FTL. So I disagree, but I don't think we can continue the discussion. Beyond where we go, we get into circular definitions.

Theemile wrote:Personally I see this as a non-existant issue. The 2 comp failure ships survived (one at full battle conditions), dropped their wedges and sailed on into the darkness. One we know was chased down, the other we assume was. Neither exploded due to runaway reactors or overwhelmed power systems.

The 7 (?) ships which were hulked at Spindle died almost instantly (though NOT via comp failure), and their power systems were still partially intact despite wedge and multiple system failures from extreme battle damage leaving the ships to continue uncontrollably. However, the base power systems were still intact, though I would assume many reactors had been damaged or scrammed.

Point being, we have textev of the "main" power systems surviving "dead" ships that had violent, sudden deaths. I'm not going to say that the human element is not important, because David has said he is deliberately writing the Honorverse with the human element to make it relatable and enjoyable. However we have already seen "brilliant" systems most places in the ships that are merely guided by their human operators, not controlled by them. And the power systems - the heart of the ship, should be one of them.

This is interesting Theemile. I can see a condition in which that could happen. If the power demand is close to nominal when the compensator cut out, I don't see a problem. If the ship is simply at battle conditions, but if she isn't accelerating and a high demand hasn't yet been placed on the reactors and won't be needed by any emergency or auxiliary systems, that could happen for certain.

When Entropy is balanced.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:31 pm

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cthia wrote:INTELLIGENCE = LIFE

Are you then saying that an amoeba or a bacteria is not alive?
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:46 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:INTELLIGENCE = LIFE

Are you then saying that an amoeba or a bacteria is not alive?

You make the mistake a lot thinking that equations are necessarily commutative.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:18 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:INTELLIGENCE = LIFE

tlb wrote:Are you then saying that an amoeba or a bacteria is not alive?

cthia wrote:You make the mistake a lot thinking that equations are necessarily commutative.

I asked a simple question and you could have answered it by saying "'true' intelligence implies life, but life need not imply intelligence". Is that what you mean?

However whatever is meant by 'true' intelligence, I do not expect scientists to begin to approach it anytime soon. Maybe in two thousand years, if humans survive that long. For the near future people will continue to work on artificial intelligence.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:08 pm

Brigade XO
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Location: KY

Computers make mistakes all the time, at least their software does or parts of them fail and the computer reaches an incorrect result.
I had a problem with the pick-up when it was about 4 months old. Went out to start it and, instead of starting the parking break was on and the computer thought the drive transmission was in "drive". Then it flashed a message that the battery was critcaly low, then about the parking break again and shut down. I was parked on a flat drive way at home, don't use the parking break unless I'm on a hill and the car won't shut off (with the key) if it is in Drive or Reverse.
Had to get that towed to the dealership under the warrantee. They replaced a chip on the computer's board. They could NOT get any operating history off the memory of the computer. The PARKING BREAK is ELECTROINC, not ANALOG. You pull the little lever for the parking break and that sets a signal which causes the breaks to engage and lock on. The best explination they could come up with was I had set the parking break (didn't happen) and for some reason the circuit stayed live and over 12 hours the live activation of the parking break drained the battery and with it's final power (and some handwavium operations) the computer used the tiny amount remaining to display the message the break was on, the car was in drive and it was going into emergency shutdown.

Two months later and it did the same thing but with out the parking break engaging. Oh, both time the battery was drained but since the key was 1) no in the ignition, 2) the mechanical indicator of transmission postion had shown PARK before the car was shut off and when I tried to start it and there was no other possible external draw on the power except some yet to be explained (but not in any of the manual or operation instructions for the HUM draw between the HUM unit that "Might" have been the thing that drained the battery) and the Hum cartrage that plugs into diagnostic port under the steering wheel- and, no there were no lights left "on" nor a door open.
And yet another bit of electronics had to be replaced (under warrantee) AND with an "upgraded" version for that motherboard for that model vehicle.
So someting failed (twice) and engaged at least one system that drained a brand new battery- and the gel-mats battery that came with the car was swapped out for something else which was what was drained the 2nd time.
And you don't have an analog gage nor even get to a display in the electronic instermentation alternative grouping to get an idea if the battery is charging, discharging or what it's charge level may be.
It's a computer...when it or part or a subsystem of the vehicle connected electronicaly to it fails, it gets squirrely and dies. :)
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:48 am

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cthia wrote:Not inherently they don't. The circuit's design is resisting it. The design doesn't mind if the capacitors reach a fully charged state. The design fights against a fully discharged state. And entropy alone is discharging it. Holding capacitors at a fully charged state won't kill them. Holding them at a discharged state might kill you. Grasers firing at their maximum rate of fire against a hell storm of missiles and LACS might dangerously deplete your capacitors but the design of the system is fighting hard as possible trying to recharge them.


We're talking past each other. No one is arguing that one should keep capacitors discharged when you need them.

The only thing I'm arguing is that keeping them charged reduces their lifespan or forces the engineering crew to tear it down and rebuild. Therefore, there may be some guidance as to when the capacitors should be charged, how many and to how much of their maximum rated charge, so as to extend their life without endangering the crew. The captain makes no call on this, the engineering crew knows what to do based on the battle readiness state of the ship.

This may have all gone out the window the moment the war started, same as they began experimenting more and more with compensators at full instead of 80%.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:07 am

cthia
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cthia wrote:Not inherently they don't. The circuit's design is resisting it. The design doesn't mind if the capacitors reach a fully charged state. The design fights against a fully discharged state. And entropy alone is discharging it. Holding capacitors at a fully charged state won't kill them. Holding them at a discharged state might kill you. Grasers firing at their maximum rate of fire against a hell storm of missiles and LACS might dangerously deplete your capacitors but the design of the system is fighting hard as possible trying to recharge them.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:We're talking past each other. No one is arguing that one should keep capacitors discharged when you need them.

Having them discharged - at any time - risks that, since you can't ever know when something may suddenly decloak off your starboard bow ready to fire on you! If that happens you want to be able to give the order . . .

"Fire the grasers!"

not

"Charge the main batteries THEN fire the grasers!"


I don't understand your reasoning. Since battle readiness will always trump component wear.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The only thing I'm arguing is that keeping them charged reduces their lifespan or forces the engineering crew to tear it down and rebuild. Therefore, there may be some guidance as to when the capacitors should be charged, how many and to how much of their maximum rated charge, so as to extend their life without endangering the crew. The captain makes no call on this, the engineering crew knows what to do based on the battle readiness state of the ship.

You keep saying that and I keep disagreeing. Using capacitors are not going to significantly put maintenance time on the clock.

They.Are.Built.For.It. They are Energizer Bunnies. They keep going and going and going . . .

If you are championing instant charge capacitors, then maybe I can agree. Maybe. Though even then it is risky.

If a mole, spy, saboteur, conditioned crew member, or the Demon Murphy sabotages your reactors, you still want to be able to fire grasers. IOW, even if capacitors are an instant charge proposition you could suddenly lose main power erasing your ability to instant-charge them. It is a warship. You should never totally pull its teeth. Unless maybe while sitting in dry-dock.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:This may have all gone out the window the moment the war started, same as they began experimenting more and more with compensators at full instead of 80%.

I don't think the equation would change in time of peace or war unless the ship itself is sitting in dry-dock. Once the ship is released for her acceptance trials, her capacitors should be fully changed at all times.

You don't ever want to tell a family member that their loved ones died because when hell came home to roost their warship was in "energy-saving mode."

Now you seem to be adding stopping short of a full charge when you do charge them???

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 am

ThinksMarkedly
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cthia wrote:Having them discharged - at any time - risks that, since you can't ever know when something may suddenly decloak off your starboard bow ready to fire on you! If that happens you want to be able to give the order . . .


Because nothing can come that close to you and endanger your ship. Or at least, so they thought. Any battle would have been seen at least 10 minutes in advance, which gives times for crews to change into shipsuits, lock any treecats into portable oxygen carrier packs, stow any loose items away, and report to duty stations. So why not charge the rest of the capacitors at this time?

Up until the Yawata Strike, this would have been the rule for any navy. It's possible they changed.

Another detail is that we know it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes from giving the order to transition to hyperspace, even with a ready generator. They don't hold the generator at T minus 1 second for some reason.

Using capacitors are not going to significantly put maintenance time on the clock.

They.Are.Built.For.It.


You don't know that. I admit we don't know otherwise either, but common sense says that any equipment that is in use will have wear and tear.
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