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What happens to all that debris?

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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:58 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:These are well trained people. Let them do their jobs. I agree with the speed computers can react. Preventing power surges and cascades should be under computer control with audible warnings. But shutting down grasers because they are running too hot should not be a computer's decision. Again, we are disagreeing on what is actually black&white. The following dialogue should never occur ...

"The grasers are offline Captain because they are running hot and the computer is trying to save them."

"I'M TRYING TO SAVE YOU ME AND THE SHIP GET THEM BACK ONLINE NOW!"

Which is why I speculate that those kind of situations the computers would alert the human operators and grant them the decision; but also have fallback decision making authority if the situation worsens and nobody has provided human input.

In this graser scenario, if nobody in the on-mount crews, the damage control, tactical, or general engineering has been able to say whether it's critical to keep the failing graser in operation then things are so messed up that cutting power to it is the least of the ship's problems (but letting it fail in some catastrophic manner might still make things much worse)

Absolutely Jonathan. That is how it is now and how it will always be. It is how it has to be. It is how it is in the HV. Again, consider how serious the situation was aboard Fearless when the core needed to be ejected. The computer was aware of it and was giving a countdown. It didn't just do it. I need to reread that passage. But even so, the computer will try and consult first, because it may not be aware of all of the necessary variables. It is not as critical, but that is how software works now and it is the default. My computer doesn't automatically shut down because the battery is running low. Don't you dare! Heck, we all hate it when it decides on its own to update software.

Speaking of the famous pilot Sully, the computer aboard planes won't even alter altitude when you are flying too low. "Pull up! Pull up!"

You may be intentionally flying low to avoid radar or a flock of geese or ...

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:05 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's part of it. Yes, with a true AI, you should not see a difference between a human and an AI.

cthia wrote:Indeed, if it is true AI there IS NO difference except the outer shell.
The arrogance of man leads him to think he can create life, but he doesn't believe that an entity could have already beaten him to it.

I would be very surprised if anyone working on AI thinks that they are trying to create life. They are trying to create programs that can do certain specific things that humans can do. For specific instances (some games, for example), the programs can perform better. I am not aware of any significant progress in general purpose intelligence.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:14 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:These are well trained people. Let them do their jobs. I agree with the speed computers can react. Preventing power surges and cascades should be under computer control with audible warnings. But shutting down grasers because they are running too hot should not be a computer's decision. Again, we are disagreeing on what is actually black&white. The following dialogue should never occur ...

"The grasers are offline Captain because they are running hot and the computer is trying to save them."

"I'M TRYING TO SAVE YOU ME AND THE SHIP GET THEM BACK ONLINE NOW!"

Which is why I speculate that those kind of situations the computers would alert the human operators and grant them the decision; but also have fallback decision making authority if the situation worsens and nobody has provided human input.

In this graser scenario, if nobody in the on-mount crews, the damage control, tactical, or general engineering has been able to say whether it's critical to keep the failing graser in operation then things are so messed up that cutting power to it is the least of the ship's problems (but letting it fail in some catastrophic manner might still make things much worse)

Zooming out to a bird's eye view. When your ship mate who is working his station beside you is severely injured or worse, you want to be able to "slave" his "terminal" to your own. That kind of thing is practiced in simulations as well. Not only are you losing systems, you are losing fellow crew who are similarly manning important stations beside you. And you have most likely built up a special rapport between the two of you. Different modes most likely can be accepted.

That is one thing I think Star Trek got right, the ability to transfer several duty stations to one station.

There's probably a screen saver program that goes into effect if nobody is interacting with it. With the ability to voice activate modes.

We have also been treated to the ability to slave at least some of the duty stations to the Captain's command console. Honor's passcode is simply "Salamander." Nobody will ever expect that from her. LOL

And, per my notion earlier that a Captain has the knowledge of an engineer. Honor may have the ability to slave the entire ship to herself. It'll be a losing proposition for her to go it alone. But if it can be done, and if anyone can manage it... long enough. It is Honor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:45 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I've never known capacitors to be used in any system and not kept fully charged. That would be defeating the purpose of having these very expensive devices.


Interpreting "fully charged" as "in use." [1]

The point is that you're putting time on the maintenance clock and expected lifetime of those devices. The more you use, the more frequent you must conduct maintenance and replace them. So if those are very expensive devices, you may need to "ration" their use somehow. [2]

This applies to reactors too: a ship with 6 reactors that needs 4 for regular needs would be cycling through which ones are online at any time. It would be always in a cycle of bringing up the fifth, turn off the first and do maintenance on it. This is also why it would need 6 reactors, not 5: so that if battle conditions come unexpected, you can survive with a reactor that can't start because it's disassembled. [3]


[1] Yes, please do.

[2] Put the time on the clock! You don't ration capacitors. That's why your navy is paying the cost to be the boss. As far as their importance to your war effort, capacitors are like your F-14! You don't ground it because it is expensive to operate. You don't want your capacitors sitting in dry dock at Pearl Harbor come time to fight. And again, capacitors are robust. There shouldn't be a lot of maintenance. They can handle the charge cycles. They were born for it.

[3] Agreed. Although the ship may idle at the reactor's nominal power setting, the number of reactors online should always be capable of outputting maximum military power. If not, you may have to add a reactor's start time to wedge start time. And you don't want that.

ENTROPY will destroy any system without power or people (biological energy) to maintain the power.

tlb wrote:Any system? Capacitors in an AC to DC power converter are continually cycling between charge levels as they work to smooth out the AC ripple.

Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.

ENTROPY works against the entire universe and everything in it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:05 pm

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tlb wrote:Any system? Capacitors in an AC to DC power converter are continually cycling between charge levels as they work to smooth out the AC ripple.

cthia wrote:Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.

No, they do NOT resist discharging. Whether they are charging or discharging is simply dependent on whether the external voltage is greater or less than the internal voltage.

PS. Salmon only end their life by swimming upstream, they began it by swimming downstream to the ocean.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:21 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:Any system? Capacitors in an AC to DC power converter are continually cycling between charge levels as they work to smooth out the AC ripple.

cthia wrote:Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.

No, they do NOT resist discharging. Whether they are charging or discharging is simply dependent on whether the external voltage is greater or less than the internal voltage.

PS. Salmon only end their life by swimming upstream, they began it by swimming downstream to the ocean.

Not inherently they don't. The circuit's design is resisting it. The design doesn't mind if the capacitors reach a fully charged state. The design fights against a fully discharged state. And entropy alone is discharging it. Holding capacitors at a fully charged state won't kill them. Holding them at a discharged state might kill you. Grasers firing at their maximum rate of fire against a hell storm of missiles and LACS might dangerously deplete your capacitors but the design of the system is fighting hard as possible trying to recharge them.

Capacitors are ever working to keep themselves charged so they can provide power to your devices.

You don't want to enter a battle with your capacitors at a disadvantage. The only thing worse is taking a boombox with weak batteries to a high-energy birthday party.

Entropy is what discharges your smartphones, and tablets, and capacitors. You plug them into the outlet to battle entropy, but while it is plugged into the outlet, you can start putting a heavy load on the device by using it. And depending on how heavy the load (wi-fi, streaming, downloading, etc.) the demand may exceed the power to recharge it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:08 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.
tlb wrote:PS. Salmon only end their life by swimming upstream, they began it by swimming downstream to the ocean.

If the Salmon in question are capacitors, they damn well better have already made the trip upstream before they come to the raging river of battle.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:59 pm

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cthia wrote:Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.
tlb wrote:PS. Salmon only end their life by swimming upstream, they began it by swimming downstream to the ocean.

cthia wrote:If the Salmon in question are capacitors, they damn well better have already made the trip upstream before they come to the raging river of battle.

Certainly the capacitors that supply energy to the weapons in a warship need to be fully charged before used in battle; no one questions that.

Since salmon swim upstream just once in their life to spawn and die, I was just pointing out that salmon were a ridiculous metaphor for capacitors. When they have swum upstream, they are already past the raging rivers of whatever.

What you ignore is that in general usage, capacitors might be at any stage of charge, including a periodic recharge/discharge cycle.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:19 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Even so, the capacitors are always like Salmon swimming upstream fighting entropy. They are trying to reach a fully charged state ever resisting a tendency to discharge. The design wants them fully charged to avoid a power level in which they are ineffective.
tlb wrote:PS. Salmon only end their life by swimming upstream, they began it by swimming downstream to the ocean.

cthia wrote:If the Salmon in question are capacitors, they damn well better have already made the trip upstream before they come to the raging river of battle.

Certainly the capacitors that supply energy to the weapons in a warship need to be fully charged before used in battle; no one questions that.

Since salmon swim upstream just once in their life to spawn and die, I was just pointing out that salmon were a ridiculous metaphor for capacitors. When they have swum upstream, they are already past the raging rivers of whatever.

What you ignore is that in general usage, capacitors might be at any stage of charge, including a periodic recharge/discharge cycle.

You are missing the point, tlb. The nominal state of capacitors is at full charge. You are not always firing grasers thus demanding maximum load. So, absent battle, there will always be a net surplus of power being fed to the capacitors. Therefore, barring battle and the creek don't rise the capacitors in most systems will eventually reach a fully-charged state. In this instance, the swamp is filling with water faster than it is draining.

I wouldn't be surprised if the capacitors are not being used after they are charged. The reactors can handle the ship's energy demands at that point. The capacitors remain ready to deliver huge burts of power when needed, but only when needed. You don't want your capacitors discharging while supplying power to a boombox. The reactor can handle that load.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:06 pm

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tlb wrote:Certainly the capacitors that supply energy to the weapons in a warship need to be fully charged before used in battle; no one questions that.

cthia wrote:You are missing the point, tlb. The nominal state of capacitors is at full charge. You are not always firing grasers thus demanding maximum load. So, absent battle, there will always be a net surplus of power being fed to the capacitors. Therefore, barring battle and the creek don't rise the capacitors in most systems will eventually reach a fully-charged state.

As you can see, I have not missed THAT point. Since is the only point you want to talk about, I have conceded that the capacitors that supply the energy to the weapons on a warship are kept at full charge.
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