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What happens to all that debris?

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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed. In space, you "sink" it by firing it in the direction of the star, which is the bottom of the gravity well in the star system. Bodies buried this way wouldn't count as debris because their trajectories are well-known and also short-lived.

And never, ever fire caskets into nebulae collapsing into Genesis proto-matter...

And unlike today's rockets Honorverse ships can fairly trivially provide the bodies sufficient velocity to actually hit the star (well get close enough to be vaporized by it).

But it's one of the oddities of orbital mechanics that from Earth it takes less than half the velocity to launch something entirely out of the solar system than it does to launch it into the sun. (Earth's orbital velocity is 29.78 km/s while the system escape velocity from Earth is only 42.1 km/s - so add 12.32 km/s to leave or remove 29.78 km/s to drop into the sun)

Those are huge velocities today, but a matter of just minutes of acceleration for any Honorverse ship.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:04 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed. In space, you "sink" it by firing it in the direction of the star, which is the bottom of the gravity well in the star system. Bodies buried this way wouldn't count as debris because their trajectories are well-known and also short-lived.

And never, ever fire caskets into nebulae collapsing into Genesis proto-matter...

And unlike today's rockets Honorverse ships can fairly trivially provide the bodies sufficient velocity to actually hit the star (well get close enough to be vaporized by it).

But it's one of the oddities of orbital mechanics that from Earth it takes less than half the velocity to launch something entirely out of the solar system than it does to launch it into the sun. (Earth's orbital velocity is 29.78 km/s while the system escape velocity from Earth is only 42.1 km/s - so add 12.32 km/s to leave or remove 29.78 km/s to drop into the sun)

Those are huge velocities today, but a matter of just minutes of acceleration for any Honorverse ship.


tlb wrote:Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

Burial at sea may use a canvas bag, but it is still done with the proper military courtesy and respect. I don't think the use of pods for burial at sea would be a recommended policy either, when pods are already in short supply. But they do provide a proper casket of sorts. And a way for the ship to actually launch them safely without completely splashing their innards inside a launch tube like what would happen if a body is shot out of a cannon.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:23 am

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tlb wrote:Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

cthia wrote:I don't think the use of pods for burial at sea would be a recommended policy either, when pods are already in short supply. But they do provide a proper casket of sorts. And a way for the ship to actually launch them safely without completely splashing their innards inside a launch tube like what would happen if a body is shot out of a cannon.

All that is needed is a plastic tube with the ends sealed. Not a cannon, but a mass driver with the force turned down to a respectful amount.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:52 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

cthia wrote:I don't think the use of pods for burial at sea would be a recommended policy either, when pods are already in short supply. But they do provide a proper casket of sorts. And a way for the ship to actually launch them safely without completely splashing their innards inside a launch tube like what would happen if a body is shot out of a cannon.

All that is needed is a plastic tube with the ends sealed. Not a cannon, but a mass driver with the force turned down to a respectful amount.

I hope it is military grade plastic, because according to what was learned from the How To Abandon Ship thread, the pods, or body will have to be launched with enough force to clear the wedge. I suppose you could come to a full stop and strike your wedge, but if there are casualties then there is war. And you don't want to strike your wedge when an enemy ship may still be lurking. I suppose you could wait until you're in another system, but the enemy could be hiding in stealth their too.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:09 pm

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tlb wrote:Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

cthia wrote:I don't think the use of pods for burial at sea would be a recommended policy either, when pods are already in short supply. But they do provide a proper casket of sorts. And a way for the ship to actually launch them safely without completely splashing their innards inside a launch tube like what would happen if a body is shot out of a cannon.

tlb wrote:All that is needed is a plastic tube with the ends sealed. Not a cannon, but a mass driver with the force turned down to a respectful amount.

cthia wrote:I hope it is military grade plastic, because according to what was learned from the How To Abandon Ship thread, the pods, or body will have to be launched with enough force to clear the wedge. I suppose you could come to a full stop and strike your wedge, but if there are casualties then there is war. And you don't want to strike your wedge when an enemy ship may still be lurking. I suppose you could wait until you're in another system, but the enemy could be hiding in stealth their too.

You are still thinking life pods, which come out that way. The plastic coffin can be launched out of a bow or stern tube and go right out of the open aspect of the wedge.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:18 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I hope it is military grade plastic, because according to what was learned from the How To Abandon Ship thread, the pods, or body will have to be launched with enough force to clear the wedge. I suppose you could come to a full stop and strike your wedge, but if there are casualties then there is war. And you don't want to strike your wedge when an enemy ship may still be lurking. I suppose you could wait until you're in another system, but the enemy could be hiding in stealth their too.

You are still thinking life pods, which come out that way. The plastic coffin can be launched out of a bow or stern tube and go right out of the open aspect of the wedge.

Plus burying of the fallen is a post-battle activity; once clear of the enemy. So while there should be no need to strike the wedge for it it also wouldn't be done while still in a hostile situation. (Even if for some reason you wanted to do the burial from the shuttle bay; which would involve ejecting the bodies downwards towards the wedge it'd be trivial for the ship to accelerate itself and its wedge clear of the bodies.

You might want to hold the ceremony there because the boat bays adjacent to the shuttle deck provide a reasonable large area for the ceremony with a view into the shuttle deck where the bodies could be launched. Where-as there aren't any such areas near the missile tubes. Now in that case the separation from the ship would be at low velocity relative to the ship, so you'd need to use the ship itself to build the vector towards the star or whatever before the burial ceremony - rather than imparting any significant velocity from the launch.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:15 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But it's one of the oddities of orbital mechanics that from Earth it takes less than half the velocity to launch something entirely out of the solar system than it does to launch it into the sun. (Earth's orbital velocity is 29.78 km/s while the system escape velocity from Earth is only 42.1 km/s - so add 12.32 km/s to leave or remove 29.78 km/s to drop into the sun)

Those are huge velocities today, but a matter of just minutes of acceleration for any Honorverse ship.


Minutes? A Roland or a Nike can go from orbital to escape velocity in less than two seconds! Even an outdated slow-as-snails freighter pulling 102 gravities (1 km/s²) can do that in 12.32 seconds.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:17 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Plus burying of the fallen is a post-battle activity; once clear of the enemy. So while there should be no need to strike the wedge for it it also wouldn't be done while still in a hostile situation. (Even if for some reason you wanted to do the burial from the shuttle bay; which would involve ejecting the bodies downwards towards the wedge it'd be trivial for the ship to accelerate itself and its wedge clear of the bodies.


Why not launch the bodies into the wedge? Instant cremation, surely a better ending than floating through space until captured by a gravity well.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:19 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Plus burying of the fallen is a post-battle activity; once clear of the enemy. So while there should be no need to strike the wedge for it it also wouldn't be done while still in a hostile situation. (Even if for some reason you wanted to do the burial from the shuttle bay; which would involve ejecting the bodies downwards towards the wedge it'd be trivial for the ship to accelerate itself and its wedge clear of the bodies.


Why not launch the bodies into the wedge? Instant cremation, surely a better ending than floating through space until captured by a gravity well.

Nothing personal George, but the notion rubs me the wrong way. It sort of sounds a bit too disrespectful to the fallen. Remember, these traditional exercises are an all out parade of events, with much ado - accompanied by twenty-one gun salutes and sometimes with overhead flybys in formation when possible. Ejecting them into the wedge seems like disposing of trash. I know that isn't how you mean it, and the method would certainly be easy to accomplish. I'm just not certain it is considerate enough at the end of the day. Plus, cremations are supposed to yield ashes for the family. I'm not sure the wedge will even leave dust, even if it could be collected. I think the families would be taken aback. But, I think it would be just fine for pirates...after you promised them leniency for snitching on their comrades who will be blown out the airlock.

But other's mileage may vary.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:40 pm

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Also, burial at sea is supposed to commemorate those sailors who gave their life at sea, oftentimes their entire career at sea. The vastness of space represents the sea, and bodies should be sent off, with fanfare, into the "ocean."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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