What happens to all that debris?

cthia wrote:An aside: In another TV show there was a firing squad. I was shocked to learn a firing squad was used as recently as 2010. Shocked I tell you. I thought we had abandoned firing squads long before then. I wouldn't be surprised if they still existed in the HV.

A death penalty internet site says there are three states where the firing squad is an authorized alternative method of execution. That means, I believe, that the convict can request to die by that means. The states are Mississippi, Oklahoma and Utah.

As far as the Honorverse goes, it actually is doing the pirate a favor, if they receive a pulsar dart before being spaced.

We have had many mentions of pirates being exicuted by being blown out an airlock without benifit of a space suit. At one point it even mentions the Andermani shooting them first then dumping the bodies out an airlock.
We have seen the recovery of dead both in ships and in wreckage and sometimes they talk about returning the remains to families. But that's one of those details we don't get much of. It is certainly possible that in the war with Haven, neither side was returning remains and were intering them (burial, burial after cremation etc) in some location relevent to where they were killed or brought them back to somewhere else. In the strictest sence, you really only need to vacume seal a body in an appropriate container and attach it to somehwere on the exterior of the ship (or unused corner of non-pressurized cargo hold open to space) and "they'll keep".
What happend at Blackbird clearly talked about bodies being tagged with markers/transmitters etc for recovery and returned to families.

The alternative might just be as simple as burial at see is/was. You record the relevent information for later reporting and -with some ceremony- launch them out of the ship. That would either be on a trajectory to burn up in the sun or perhaps go interstellar- but creamation by star would probably be better.

Brigade XO wrote:We have had many mentions of pirates being exicuted by being blown out an airlock without benifit of a space suit. At one point it even mentions the Andermani shooting them first then dumping the bodies out an airlock.
We have seen the recovery of dead both in ships and in wreckage and sometimes they talk about returning the remains to families. But that's one of those details we don't get much of. It is certainly possible that in the war with Haven, neither side was returning remains and were intering them (burial, burial after cremation etc) in some location relevent to where they were killed or brought them back to somewhere else. In the strictest sence, you really only need to vacume seal a body in an appropriate container and attach it to somehwere on the exterior of the ship (or unused corner of non-pressurized cargo hold open to space) and "they'll keep".
What happend at Blackbird clearly talked about bodies being tagged with markers/transmitters etc for recovery and returned to families.

The alternative might just be as simple as burial at see is/was. You record the relevent information for later reporting and -with some ceremony- launch them out of the ship. That would either be on a trajectory to burn up in the sun or perhaps go interstellar- but creamation by star would probably be better.

Thanks for the chilling reminder of the chilling practice of being blown out of an airlock. I suppose that can be classified as a burial at sea without much ado, or fanfare. I always thought there was a chance of cremation in those cases if the body comes into contact with the wedge. The frigid temperatures of the sea are going to kill you quickly, but nonetheless, I can't shake images of pirates holding on to something for dear life resisting the onrush of vacuum.

BTW, I imagine the Navy still uses burial at sea. Deaths aboard a sub on a long, high stakes mission are probably buried at sea out of necessity.

cthia wrote:
BTW, I imagine the Navy still uses burial at sea. Deaths aboard a sub on a long, high stakes mission are probably buried at sea out of necessity.

Certainly Wikipedia says that the USN still offers burial at sea upon request to: Active-duty members of the US uniformed services,
Retirees and honorably discharged veterans of same, Military Sealift Command U.S. civilian marine personnel, or Family members of the above.
But it implies that normally deceased at sea are airlifted back to land. Then if burial at sea is desired their coffin or urn of cremated remains would be put aboard a Navy ship heading out on deployment for a formal burial at sea service.

The article also says that wartime burial at sea was performed as recently as the Falklands War.

But it doesn't say when was the last time the USN buried a sailor at sea in lieu of first returning them home. I doubt it's common though; even subs on missions too secret to permit a quick airlift of the remains have freezers where the body can be stored for later return to their family.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
BTW, I imagine the Navy still uses burial at sea. Deaths aboard a sub on a long, high stakes mission are probably buried at sea out of necessity.

Certainly Wikipedia says that the USN still offers burial at sea upon request to: Active-duty members of the US uniformed services,
Retirees and honorably discharged veterans of same, Military Sealift Command U.S. civilian marine personnel, or Family members of the above.
But it implies that normally deceased at sea are airlifted back to land. Then if burial at sea is desired their coffin or urn of cremated remains would be put aboard a Navy ship heading out on deployment for a formal burial at sea service.

The article also says that wartime burial at sea was performed as recently as the Falklands War.

But it doesn't say when was the last time the USN buried a sailor at sea in lieu of first returning them home. I doubt it's common though; even subs on missions too secret to permit a quick airlift of the remains have freezers where the body can be stored for later return to their family.

Nice research. I saw that nuclear subs have some 134 crewmen. You think they'd have refrigeration for twenty or more?

cthia wrote:Nice research. I saw that nuclear subs have some 134 crewmen. You think they'd have refrigeration for twenty or more?

Probably not. On the other hand I'm kind of at a loss for what kind of accident could decimate[1] a nuclear sub's crew without causing a loss of the sub.

A couple people dying from accidents, medical issues, or bad luck; sure - but over 20? Don't see how that happens without damage bad enough to destroy the whole boat.


Technically more than decimate; at a 14%+ loss rate.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Nice research. I saw that nuclear subs have some 134 crewmen. You think they'd have refrigeration for twenty or more?

Probably not. On the other hand I'm kind of at a loss for what kind of accident could decimate[1] a nuclear sub's crew without causing a loss of the sub.

A couple people dying from accidents, medical issues, or bad luck; sure - but over 20? Don't see how that happens without damage bad enough to destroy the whole boat.


Technically more than decimate; at a 14%+ loss rate.

There were over twenty injured on an episode of Jag caused by an accidental ramming by a Soviet sub resulting in about twenty deaths who were given a burial at sea. That was probably fiction.

But a fire took 14 lives aboard a Russian sub in 2019. Fires are a real danger aboard subs.

Late edit: That was actually a Russian naval submersible Jonathan, I posted the wrong one.

This: A freon gas leak on the Russian nuclear-powered submarine Nerpa killed 20 and injured 21..

cthia wrote:I was watching an episode of Jag and they buried crewmen out to sea. That's something missing in the Honorverse. The reason we buried men at sea was lack of space to keep them, inability to preserve bodies that would rot before getting them home in time, a need to maintain operational security, time and other necessities of war. Yet, I would imagine some of the same restraints apply in the Honorverse, especially during war when you have to travel the long way around and you have hundreds, or more, of dead bodies. Shot into space in escape pods would be the equivalent, I suppose. But Navies need the pods.

Stasis.

cthia wrote:I was watching an episode of Jag and they buried crewmen out to sea. That's something missing in the Honorverse. The reason we buried men at sea was lack of space to keep them, inability to preserve bodies that would rot before getting them home in time, a need to maintain operational security, time and other necessities of war. Yet, I would imagine some of the same restraints apply in the Honorverse, especially during war when you have to travel the long way around and you have hundreds, or more, of dead bodies. Shot into space in escape pods would be the equivalent, I suppose. But Navies need the pods.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Stasis.

Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

tlb wrote:Why use life pods once life is gone? Burial at sea is a canvas bag with a weight to make it sink as in the Hornblower books.

Indeed. In space, you "sink" it by firing it in the direction of the star, which is the bottom of the gravity well in the star system. Bodies buried this way wouldn't count as debris because their trajectories are well-known and also short-lived.

And never, ever fire caskets into nebulae collapsing into Genesis proto-matter...