What happens to all that debris?

kzt wrote:Spider torps have a loiter time of months.

They can just fly themselves into the sun or a convenient gas giant when they need to go away.

Which implies they could also go to an RV point outside the system, in the middle of nowhere, to be retrieved.

G-torps could have a self-destruct segment that had them head out of whatever system they were in and then slag themselves though that might be picked up as weapons fire in some odd places (like way the hell out and above the polar north of the system).

Expecting g-torps that didn't sucessfully get to engage their assigned targets to somehow rondeavoue with what should be retreating Alignment ships trying to creep the heck away from somewhere like Manticore after Oyster Bay is a really big stretch. 1st, that means that one of the nominally evading ships is going to have to loiter somewhere near that target.....really really upset hornets looking for vengeance comes to mind and if they spot something odd they might just recover it. Instructing them to go Sun diving also means they have to manuver away from an active battle scene.
Much better to have them just destroy themselves as any missile weapons that has run out it's drive clock. One more energy burst that is in a time and place where it was "miss" shot doesn't help the enemy much other than know that it probably wasn't one of it's own weapons.
Anything that doesn't fall into a local gravity well or is already at escape velocity is going to spread out and become just so much more errant space junk which may or may not have an instersecting vector with a ship or other equipment in the next couple of millennium. Much if it is relatively small (probably not much in radar return), not radiating anything to draw attention and moving at what used to be called "a good clip" Eventually it may be a bolt out of the dark - if it doesn't get swept up by something like a planet of ship under impeller drive as it gets back near busy areas .

Brigade XO wrote:G-torps could have a self-destruct segment that had them head out of whatever system they were in and then slag themselves though that might be picked up as weapons fire in some odd places (like way the hell out and above the polar north of the system).

Expecting g-torps that didn't sucessfully get to engage their assigned targets to somehow rondeavoue with what should be retreating Alignment ships trying to creep the heck away from somewhere like Manticore after Oyster Bay is a really big stretch. 1st, that means that one of the nominally evading ships is going to have to loiter somewhere near that target.....really really upset hornets looking for vengeance comes to mind and if they spot something odd they might just recover it. Instructing them to go Sun diving also means they have to manuver away from an active battle scene.
Much better to have them just destroy themselves as any missile weapons that has run out it's drive clock. One more energy burst that is in a time and place where it was "miss" shot doesn't help the enemy much other than know that it probably wasn't one of it's own weapons.
Anything that doesn't fall into a local gravity well or is already at escape velocity is going to spread out and become just so much more errant space junk which may or may not have an instersecting vector with a ship or other equipment in the next couple of millennium. Much if it is relatively small (probably not much in radar return), not radiating anything to draw attention and moving at what used to be called "a good clip" Eventually it may be a bolt out of the dark - if it doesn't get swept up by something like a planet of ship under impeller drive as it gets back near busy areas .

Recovering unused torps might make more sense in a small attack or commerce raiding scenario.

The attacking spider ship is unlikely to be deep in the system, nor need to immediately flee. And it could launch a wide spread of torpedoes to bracket most routes the target might take, hit the target with whatever torp(s) can pull of the intercept, then recall the rest to be checked/refurbished and readied for future use.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:G-torps could have a self-destruct segment that had them head out of whatever system they were in and then slag themselves though that might be picked up as weapons fire in some odd places (like way the hell out and above the polar north of the system).

Expecting g-torps that didn't sucessfully get to engage their assigned targets to somehow rondeavoue with what should be retreating Alignment ships trying to creep the heck away from somewhere like Manticore after Oyster Bay is a really big stretch. 1st, that means that one of the nominally evading ships is going to have to loiter somewhere near that target.....really really upset hornets looking for vengeance comes to mind and if they spot something odd they might just recover it. Instructing them to go Sun diving also means they have to manuver away from an active battle scene.
Much better to have them just destroy themselves as any missile weapons that has run out it's drive clock. One more energy burst that is in a time and place where it was "miss" shot doesn't help the enemy much other than know that it probably wasn't one of it's own weapons.
Anything that doesn't fall into a local gravity well or is already at escape velocity is going to spread out and become just so much more errant space junk which may or may not have an instersecting vector with a ship or other equipment in the next couple of millennium. Much if it is relatively small (probably not much in radar return), not radiating anything to draw attention and moving at what used to be called "a good clip" Eventually it may be a bolt out of the dark - if it doesn't get swept up by something like a planet of ship under impeller drive as it gets back near busy areas .

Recovering unused torps might make more sense in a small attack or commerce raiding scenario.

The attacking spider ship is unlikely to be deep in the system, nor need to immediately flee. And it could launch a wide spread of torpedoes to bracket most routes the target might take, hit the target with whatever torp(s) can pull of the intercept, then recall the rest to be checked/refurbished and readied for future use.

I didn't consider a commerce raiding scenario. But do you think that would call for insane numbers of g-torps to be launched? Commerce raiding is an attack on immobile assets. That can be done from afar and much more accurately. How many were used during Oyster Bay?

At any rate, I would expect enormous numbers of them to be used in a defense of Darius. Or during an all out attack on an enemy star system.

However, I was strictly thinking it would only be feasible to recover those launched in their own Home System. In their own back yard.

I remember that the cost of RMN missiles was given at one point. I can't regurgitate those figures on demand, but I remember being shocked at the price tag of a single missile. Especially considering the RMN's habit of using "demonstration launches."

I can't imagine the price tag of a g-torp. And that isn't even considering how limited they might be.

At any rate, if the RMN ever attacks Darius, as I said once before, I don't think round one will go in the RMN's favor. But they will come back with new tactics and loaded for bear. The MA may need their unspent ordnance.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:* Of course, the author's statement would still hold true if those g-torps also self-destructed. But would it be advisable to detonate huge salvos of g-torps that missed their targets, possibly alerting the enemy that they were even launched? In the case of impeller-driven missiles the enemy already knows when they are launched.

By the time they missed the enemy would have known about them because they would have engaged the ones that were aimed more accurately. The only way they could be undetected is if the fleet moved out of their line of fire while they were in flight.

I would assume they have destructs like other missiles. That's something they really don't want somebody to find drifting in space with it's power spent.

I must hesitate to agree with you here. They will certainly be aware of the ones that had a payday, but that doesn't guarantee they can detect any others. Especially if they weren't detected during their incoming leg. Probably won't be detected after missing either. Especially since the ones that had a payday will have them distracted. And, of course, detection assumes the corresponding launch left any ships alive.

cthia wrote:However, I was strictly thinking it would only be feasible to recover those launched in their own Home System. In their own back yard.

I remember that the cost of RMN missiles was given at one point. I can't regurgitate those figures on demand, but I remember being shocked at the price tag of a single missile. Especially considering the RMN's habit of using "demonstration launches."

I can't imagine the price tag of a g-torp. And that isn't even considering how limited they might be.

At any rate, if the RMN ever attacks Darius, as I said once before, I don't think round one will go in the RMN's favor. But they will come back with new tactics and loaded for bear. The MA may need their unspent ordnance.

I think you are quite correct: they will want to reuse any system defense graser torpedo that did not engage a target and just as Honor discovered at the planet Sidemore, that means the torpedoes should have a way for the proper authority to locate and recovery them.

cthia wrote:I didn't consider a commerce raiding scenario. But do you think that would call for insane numbers of g-torps to be launched? Commerce raiding is an attack on immobile assets. That can be done from afar and much more accurately. How many were used during Oyster Bay?

At any rate, I would expect enormous numbers of them to be used in a defense of Darius. Or during an all out attack on an enemy star system.

However, I was strictly thinking it would only be feasible to recover those launched in their own Home System. In their own back yard.

I remember that the cost of RMN missiles was given at one point. I can't regurgitate those figures on demand, but I remember being shocked at the price tag of a single missile. Especially considering the RMN's habit of using "demonstration launches."

I can't imagine the price tag of a g-torp. And that isn't even considering how limited they might be.

At any rate, if the RMN ever attacks Darius, as I said once before, I don't think round one will go in the RMN's favor. But they will come back with new tactics and loaded for bear. The MA may need their unspent ordnance.

Not necessarily an insane amount. But if the spider was lurking beyond the hyper limit and trying to punch out a convoy that was zig zagging randomly as it headed out system you might want to hit each target ship with at least 2 Gtorps; but because they've got at least as much acceleration as the torp, and are making random course changes, you might want to widely spread extra torps so no mater which way they go some will be within range. I'm thinking possibly up to 16 Gtorps per target -- basically pairs, well out, each 45 degrees around the target -- so no mater which way they break they'll be moving towards at least 1 pair.


But there's no need to waste the Gtorps that the convoy didn't end up dodging into the crosshairs of of -- not when they've got the endurance to turn around and rendezvous with you so you recover them for future use.

Of course a convoy would only be routinely dodging after folks became aware that commerce raiding was being done with invisible (but slow) weapons. So even if a spider equipped force adopted that tactic (and the MAlign might never do so) their first few attacks would catch people entirely by surprise and would have no need to use all those precautionary Gtorps.



But yes, if possible, they'd also want to recover any system defense Gtorps that weren't able to make an intercept before hitting "bingo" and reaching minimum endurance to still be able to make it back to base.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I didn't consider a commerce raiding scenario. But do you think that would call for insane numbers of g-torps to be launched? Commerce raiding is an attack on immobile assets. That can be done from afar and much more accurately. How many were used during Oyster Bay?

At any rate, I would expect enormous numbers of them to be used in a defense of Darius. Or during an all out attack on an enemy star system.

However, I was strictly thinking it would only be feasible to recover those launched in their own Home System. In their own back yard.

I remember that the cost of RMN missiles was given at one point. I can't regurgitate those figures on demand, but I remember being shocked at the price tag of a single missile. Especially considering the RMN's habit of using "demonstration launches."

I can't imagine the price tag of a g-torp. And that isn't even considering how limited they might be.

At any rate, if the RMN ever attacks Darius, as I said once before, I don't think round one will go in the RMN's favor. But they will come back with new tactics and loaded for bear. The MA may need their unspent ordnance.

Not necessarily an insane amount. But if the spider was lurking beyond the hyper limit and trying to punch out a convoy that was zig zagging randomly as it headed out system you might want to hit each target ship with at least 2 Gtorps; but because they've got at least as much acceleration as the torp, and are making random course changes, you might want to widely spread extra torps so no mater which way they go some will be within range. I'm thinking possibly up to 16 Gtorps per target -- basically pairs, well out, each 45 degrees around the target -- so no mater which way they break they'll be moving towards at least 1 pair.


But there's no need to waste the Gtorps that the convoy didn't end up dodging into the crosshairs of of -- not when they've got the endurance to turn around and rendezvous with you so you recover them for future use.

Of course a convoy would only be routinely dodging after folks became aware that commerce raiding was being done with invisible (but slow) weapons. So even if a spider equipped force adopted that tactic (and the MAlign might never do so) their first few attacks would catch people entirely by surprise and would have no need to use all those precautionary Gtorps.



But yes, if possible, they'd also want to recover any system defense Gtorps that weren't able to make an intercept before hitting "bingo" and reaching minimum endurance to still be able to make it back to base.

Brilliant Jonathan. That ability essentially turns them into boomerangs, and as dangerous as Mjölnir when it is returning to Thor's hand. It can strike at an enemy on the way back. "Catch you later."

Hey, can anyone remember that very early video game where the missiles were essentially seekers that followed you wherever you would go. You were much faster, but after awhile there were so many missiles coming in on you, that, "BOOM!"

And you could see those missiles.


.

Brigade XO wrote:Expecting g-torps that didn't sucessfully get to engage their assigned targets to somehow rondeavoue with what should be retreating Alignment ships trying to creep the heck away from somewhere like Manticore after Oyster Bay is a really big stretch. 1st, that means that one of the nominally evading ships is going to have to loiter somewhere near that target.....really really upset hornets looking for vengeance comes to mind and if they spot something odd they might just recover it. Instructing them to go Sun diving also means they have to manuver away from an active battle scene.
Much better to have them just destroy themselves as any missile weapons that has run out it's drive clock. One more energy burst that is in a time and place where it was "miss" shot doesn't help the enemy much other than know that it probably wasn't one of it's own weapons.
Anything that doesn't fall into a local gravity well or is already at escape velocity is going to spread out and become just so much more errant space junk which may or may not have an instersecting vector with a ship or other equipment in the next couple of millennium. Much if it is relatively small (probably not much in radar return), not radiating anything to draw attention and moving at what used to be called "a good clip" Eventually it may be a bolt out of the dark - if it doesn't get swept up by something like a planet of ship under impeller drive as it gets back near busy areas .

Right. A gtorp coming at anything above 0.1c can't turn fast enough to throw itself into the star in the 10 light-minutes from the missed target and putting the star in its rear-view mirrors...er.. rear-facing sensors. Unless the attack was planned from an point such that the star directly ahead of the target when it struck, which seems to be like poor planning.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:However, I was strictly thinking it would only be feasible to recover those launched in their own Home System. In their own back yard.

I remember that the cost of RMN missiles was given at one point. I can't regurgitate those figures on demand, but I remember being shocked at the price tag of a single missile. Especially considering the RMN's habit of using "demonstration launches."

I can't imagine the price tag of a g-torp. And that isn't even considering how limited they might be.

At any rate, if the RMN ever attacks Darius, as I said once before, I don't think round one will go in the RMN's favor. But they will come back with new tactics and loaded for bear. The MA may need their unspent ordnance.

I think you are quite correct: they will want to reuse any system defense graser torpedo that did not engage a target and just as Honor discovered at the planet Sidemore, that means the torpedoes should have a way for the proper authority to locate and recovery them.

Just like escape pods have homing beacons.