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What happens to all that debris?

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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:21 pm

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cthia wrote:About that. How well can you fight a ship of someone else's design? I suppose command codes and the like would be "tickled" out of the officers, but being able to actually fight the ship would require familiarity with Havenite ship design to be effective. I suppose there are RMN officers who have been checked out on Havenite designs using captured ships throughout the war, but were those officers among Honor's original ragtime band of bandits? And most of the officers from the planet had not been aboard a ship in decades.

I was never comfortable believing the Masadans were able to operate, let alone fight, a Havenite ship. What was the largest ship a Masadan had even been in. And they had commandeered an SD. That should have been like going from a crop duster to a 747. Everything should have been alien to them. It isn't like operating a car. Which isn't necessarily easy either from model to model especially when the models are so new and different and you haven't been in a car for eons. Where are the high beams?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They clearly did.

Remember that White Haven captured over a dozen SDs at Third Yeltsin and turned over half a dozen to the GSN, the rest was bought into the RMN service. So those at least were able to be effectively used by Manticore and allies.

I don't expect that it was easy, but it was doable, in all of the cases above. They all had time to train and learn how to use their ships. They might never be as effective as the force that ship was designed for, but they did get them to combat effectiveness.

It may well be that for the longest time that all ships were basically copies of Solarian League models, as they were considered to be the top navy. Once you standardize on fusion power, wedge or sail and hyperdrive generator, then the main differences might end up being console layout. So between a frigate and an SD it just might be that there is more of everything.

I realize that there is a learning curve whenever I get into a different model car; but since I have never tried shifting with paddle levers, generally it does not take long to adjust. For instance: I do not usually stall more than once, when driving my sister's vehicle with manual transmission.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:28 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:About that. How well can you fight a ship of someone else's design? I suppose command codes and the like would be "tickled" out of the officers, but being able to actually fight the ship would require familiarity with Havenite ship design to be effective. I suppose there are RMN officers who have been checked out on Havenite designs using captured ships throughout the war, but were those officers among Honor's original ragtime band of bandits? And most of the officers from the planet had not been aboard a ship in decades.

I was never comfortable believing the Masadans were able to operate, let alone fight, a Havenite ship. What was the largest ship a Masadan had even been in. And they had commandeered an SD. That should have been like going from a crop duster to a 747. Everything should have been alien to them. It isn't like operating a car. Which isn't necessarily easy either from model to model especially when the models are so new and different and you haven't been in a car for eons. Where are the high beams?


They clearly did.

Remember that White Haven captured over a dozen SDs at Third Yeltsin and turned over half a dozen to the GSN, the rest was bought into the RMN service. So those at least were able to be effectively used by Manticore and allies.

I don't expect that it was easy, but it was doable, in all of the cases above. They all had time to train and learn how to use their ships. They might never be as effective as the force that ship was designed for, but they did get them to combat effectiveness.

I don't think crop duster to 747 is a good one. But comparing being certified to fly an A320 and then being thrown on the seat of a B777, or conversely someone certified on B737 (especially the Classic ones, the -400, -500 and -600) being thrown on an A350. There'll be a lot you don't know, but the manuals are aboard and given enough time you'll do a passable job at it. The Masadans had Peeps to teach them and the ships pressed into service after Third Yeltsin had time.

Honor had the time pressure.


Don't forget , the Masadian ships were even more primitive than the early Grayson designs - who were similar in capability to the ships in Travis Long's time. I would say the better analogy would be early B707s or BOAC Comets jumping to the B777 or A350s. Again, the basics are the same, you can look in the manuals, but the implementation is so different, there is a steep learning curve to use effectively. (Like going from analogue switches, to a computer keyboard and mouse - not to mention 4-5 guys in the cockpit to 2)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:31 pm

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Theemile wrote:Don't forget , the Masadian ships were even more primitive than the early Grayson designs - who were similar in capability to the ships in Travis Long's time. I would say the better analogy would be early B707s or BOAC Comets jumping to the B777 or A350s. Again, the basics are the same, you can look in the manuals, but the implementation is so different, there is a steep learning curve to use effectively. (Like going from analogue switches, to a computer keyboard and mouse - not to mention 4-5 guys in the cockpit to 2)


True. I think my comparison is more apt in the other two cases: RMN personnel running PN hardware.

The Masadans did have Peeps running their ships for them, for the most part. When they did kick Yu and the rest out, they really didn't do a good job fighting their ship, to the point that a mere CA took out a BC twice its mass.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:55 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Don't forget , the Masadian ships were even more primitive than the early Grayson designs - who were similar in capability to the ships in Travis Long's time. I would say the better analogy would be early B707s or BOAC Comets jumping to the B777 or A350s. Again, the basics are the same, you can look in the manuals, but the implementation is so different, there is a steep learning curve to use effectively. (Like going from analogue switches, to a computer keyboard and mouse - not to mention 4-5 guys in the cockpit to 2)


True. I think my comparison is more apt in the other two cases: RMN personnel running PN hardware.

The Masadans did have Peeps running their ships for them, for the most part. When they did kick Yu and the rest out, they really didn't do a good job fighting their ship, to the point that a mere CA took out a BC twice its mass.

And at that the Masadans were getting training directly from the Peep personnel after Haven "sold" the 2 ships to them. So they'd have had months of training on how to operate Thunder of God's systems before they seized it from Captain Yu.

Sure, they didn't get training on everything -- their tactical training was clearly pretty deficient; and there were Peep personnel still in key positions before the mutiny to try to head off anything dangerously stupid the Masadan watch standers might do; and I'd guess they wouldn't be able to do even much routine shipboard maintenance or trouble-shooting and repairs.
But they weren't starting from scratch after capturing or chasing away the remaining Peeps.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:04 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Sure, they didn't get training on everything -- their tactical training was clearly pretty deficient; and there were Peep personnel still in key positions before the mutiny to try to head off anything dangerously stupid the Masadan watch standers might do; and I'd guess they wouldn't be able to do even much routine shipboard maintenance or trouble-shooting and repairs.


That was a feature, not a bug.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:33 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Yeah, at their probable velocity you're probably looking at around 3 hours or so for any debris still moving at roughly the ships' base velocity to cover the 7 million km or so to the planet. I don't think we know Charon's velocity around its star, but in that time Earth would have displaced about 1/3rd of a million km. But even if the ships were aimed directly at where the planet currently was the debris would only need to be deflected less than 3 degrees to be that far off it's line.

Most of the debris would miss, but with a large cloud caused by the destruction of multiple warships you might not was to trust to "most". Not when you've got a few hours to do cleanup and it'd be quick and easy to corral any pieces large enough they might have survivors and then run a wedge a few times through the area any remaining debris on course to the planet would be traveling. (The stuff not aimed at the planet could presumably be left to fly out the far side of the system)


I agree that there could be a threat from such debris--I was questioning whether Honor could mount any meaningful effort to sweep it in the time before it hits the planet. IIRC she has no light craft and barely-manned ships full of barely-trained people. Soon it will sweep on by Cerberus, never to be seen again.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:35 am

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tlb wrote:Honor and her forces would have been around for way more than the "around 3 hours or so for any debris still moving at roughly the ships' base velocity to cover the 7 million km or so to the planet". Even if there were no survivors from the ships hit with energy beams, she would still have had her forces check. Plus there were thousands of intervention troops on the transports and they would not have been dumped into space; all of them had to be moved to camps. Then the shuttles would return loaded with those who choose to join the trek to Trevor's Star. In all, this could have taken several days before the ships were ready to leave Hades for good.

Perhaps my memory is faulty, but isn't the "arriving Peep force" that you talk about, the one that she just captured?


After those 3 hours there is zero debris, just a look for survivors--and they don't have the crew for any careful check, it will simply be looking for beacons.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:56 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Yeah, at their probable velocity you're probably looking at around 3 hours or so for any debris still moving at roughly the ships' base velocity to cover the 7 million km or so to the planet. I don't think we know Charon's velocity around its star, but in that time Earth would have displaced about 1/3rd of a million km. But even if the ships were aimed directly at where the planet currently was the debris would only need to be deflected less than 3 degrees to be that far off it's line.

Most of the debris would miss, but with a large cloud caused by the destruction of multiple warships you might not was to trust to "most". Not when you've got a few hours to do cleanup and it'd be quick and easy to corral any pieces large enough they might have survivors and then run a wedge a few times through the area any remaining debris on course to the planet would be traveling. (The stuff not aimed at the planet could presumably be left to fly out the far side of the system)


I agree that there could be a threat from such debris--I was questioning whether Honor could mount any meaningful effort to sweep it in the time before it hits the planet. IIRC she has no light craft and barely-manned ships full of barely-trained people. Soon it will sweep on by Cerberus, never to be seen again.
Well each of her ships has a "broom" that's between about 10,000 and 29,000 km^2 -- and she's got 10 of them (5 BC, 4 CA, and a CL). Even the little CL's wedge is 100 km long (and thus about 128th the diameter of the earth) so it won't take too many sweeps to clear out anything.

Now, depending on how dispersed the ships were you might need to sweep an area wider than the planet -- to account for ships that were on a course beyond it'd limb, but which now have debris being angled back towards it. But still, with 3 hours and some mighty big brooms, at least the worst of the debris should be easy enough to clean up.

And using her ships' wedges for it is going to be more efficient that using her few light-craft -- which, in any case, are mostly going to be busy bringing over troops to enforce control of the Longstop transports. (Though she can probably scrape up enough ship handlers to still devote a few pinnaces to S&R of any bits of debris large enough that there might be crew alive on them)
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:06 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Well each of her ships has a "broom" that's between about 10,000 and 29,000 km^2 -- and she's got 10 of them (5 BC, 4 CA, and a CL). Even the little CL's wedge is 100 km long (and thus about 128th the diameter of the earth) so it won't take too many sweeps to clear out anything.

Now, depending on how dispersed the ships were you might need to sweep an area wider than the planet -- to account for ships that were on a course beyond it'd limb, but which now have debris being angled back towards it. But still, with 3 hours and some mighty big brooms, at least the worst of the debris should be easy enough to clean up.

And using her ships' wedges for it is going to be more efficient that using her few light-craft -- which, in any case, are mostly going to be busy bringing over troops to enforce control of the Longstop transports. (Though she can probably scrape up enough ship handlers to still devote a few pinnaces to S&R of any bits of debris large enough that there might be crew alive on them)

There is definitely search and rescue to be performed; from chapter 49 of Echoes of Honor:
The battlecruisers Ivan IV, Subutai, and Yavuz lurched madly as grasers and lasers crashed into their bows. Ivan IV's entire forward impeller ring went down, all of her forward chase armament was destroyed, and the ship staggered bodily sideways as hull plating shattered and the demonic beams ripped straight down her long axis. They could not possibly have come in from a more deadly bearing, and damage alarms shrieked as compartments blew open to space and electronics spiked madly. Molycircs exploded like prespace firecrackers, massive bus bars and superconductor capacitors blew apart like ball lightning, trapped within the hollow confines of a warship, and almost half her crew was killed or wounded in the space of less than four seconds.
But Ivan IV was the lucky one; her forward fusion plants went into emergency shutdown in time. Subutai's and Yavuz's didn't, and the two of them vanished into blinding balls of plasma with every man and woman of their crews.
Nor did they die alone. Their sisters Boyar and Cassander went with them; the heavy cruisers Morrigan, Yama, and Excalibur blew up almost as spectacularly as Subutai; and every surviving ship was savagely damaged. The battlecruisers Modred, Pappenheim, Tammerlane, Roxana, and Cheetah lived through the initial carnage, but like Ivan IV, they were crippled and lamed, and the cruiser Broadsword was at least as badly hurt. Durandel, the only other heavy cruiser of the main force, reeled out of formation, her forward half smashed like a rotten stick while life pods erupted from her hull, and chaos reigned as the crews of maimed and broken ships fought their damage and rescue parties charged into gutted compartments in frantic search for wounded and trapped survivors. Yet chaotic as the shouts and confusion over the internal com systems were, the intership circuits were even worse, for one of ENS Huan-Ti's grasers had scored a direct hit on Tammerlane's flag bridge.
Citizen Rear Admiral Yearman was dead. Citizen General Chernock had died with him, and neither of them had ever even known their task group was under attack. The grasers' light-speed death had claimed both too quickly, and with their deaths, command devolved upon Citizen Captain Isler, in Modred. But the StateSec officer had no idea at all what to do. In fairness, it was unlikely any officer— even a modern day Edward Saganami—would have been able to react effectively to such a devastating surprise. But Isler was no Saganami, and the sharp, high note of panic in his voice as he gabbled incoherent orders over the command net finished any hint of cohesiveness in his shattered force. It came apart at the seams, each surviving captain realizing that his or her only chance of survival lay in independent action.
A few missiles got off, and Pappenheim actually managed to turn and fire her entire surviving starboard broadside at Wallenstein, but it was a pitifully inadequate response to what Honor's ships had done to them. Wallenstein's sidewall shrugged Pappenheim's energy fire aside with contemptuous ease, and despite the short range, point defense crews picked off the handful of Peep missiles which actually launched.
And then Honor's entire squadron fired a second time, and there was no more incoming fire. Five of the enemy hulks remained sufficiently intact that someone might technically describe them as ships; all the rest were spreading patterns of wreckage, dotted here and there with the transponder signals of life pods or a handful of people in skinsuits.
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Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:37 pm

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And we know that S&R takes hours to perform. And you can't use wedges for that.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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