Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

What happens to all that debris?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:26 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another detail is that we know it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes from giving the order to transition to hyperspace, even with a ready generator. They don't hold the generator at T minus 1 second for some reason.

It seems that that time isn't a charging issue; even when the hyper generator is fully charged there's that delay (which varies with ship size) to complete the execution. And so RFC set things up where it is physically impossible to hold it a T minus 1 second.

I'd guess that it takes time to convert the stored charge into the field that will carry the ship across the Alpha wall.

But building that field, for whatever reason, isn't a process you can pause (though you can abort it). So once you hit the button you're discharging the hyper generator's stored power into building (inflating?) that field; and if you abort it you've still spent that power and must spend even longer to recharge and be ready to go again.
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:46 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4173
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:Personally I see this as a non-existant issue. The 2 comp failure ships survived (one at full battle conditions), dropped their wedges and sailed on into the darkness. One we know was chased down, the other we assume was. Neither exploded due to runaway reactors or overwhelmed power systems.

The 7 (?) ships which were hulked at Spindle died almost instantly (though NOT via comp failure), and their power systems were still partially intact despite wedge and multiple system failures from extreme battle damage leaving the ships to continue uncontrollably. However, the base power systems were still intact, though I would assume many reactors had been damaged or scrammed.

Point being, we have textev of the "main" power systems surviving "dead" ships that had violent, sudden deaths. I'm not going to say that the human element is not important, because David has said he is deliberately writing the Honorverse with the human element to make it relatable and enjoyable. However we have already seen "brilliant" systems most places in the ships that are merely guided by their human operators, not controlled by them. And the power systems - the heart of the ship, should be one of them.

This is interesting Theemile. I can see a condition in which that could happen. If the power demand is close to nominal when the compensator cut out, I don't see a problem. If the ship is simply at battle conditions, but if she isn't accelerating and a high demand hasn't yet been placed on the reactors and won't be needed by any emergency or auxiliary systems, that could happen for certain.

When Entropy is balanced.


And yet, the 2nd happened in the middle of the 2nd Battle of Manticore with max engines, side walls being assaulted, missiles rolling out the back, counter missile launchers in continuous launch and PDLCs showing a Pink Floyd laser show. Does this match your description of High Demand?

I repeat, we've NEVER seen the problem you postulate in dozens of battle scenes which result in lost wedges. It just is not a normal occurrence, even in extraordinary circumstances.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:01 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12968
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another detail is that we know it takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes from giving the order to transition to hyperspace, even with a ready generator. They don't hold the generator at T minus 1 second for some reason.

It seems that that time isn't a charging issue; even when the hyper generator is fully charged there's that delay (which varies with ship size) to complete the execution. And so RFC set things up where it is physically impossible to hold it a T minus 1 second.

I'd guess that it takes time to convert the stored charge into the field that will carry the ship across the Alpha wall.

But building that field, for whatever reason, isn't a process you can pause (though you can abort it). So once you hit the button you're discharging the hyper generator's stored power into building (inflating?) that field; and if you abort it you've still spent that power and must spend even longer to recharge and be ready to go again.

There can't be anything associated with a charging issue or it would be given in the specs. When Home Fleet is sitting in orbit, any significant time to recharge capacitors would have to be given. And since sitting in orbit is the only time I can see even a remote possibility of having discharged capacitors, I'll use it as an example. Or rather, it is the lesser of the other evils. Unless anyone else can give me any other opportune time for intentional capacitor downtime?

Your notion of having to abort the process of building the field - or the process being aborted for you for whatever reason - is part and parcel to my insistence the capacitors ever remain charged. It goes double for starting the wedge. If for any reason the process fails or has to be aborted, or is aborted for you, there simply must be enough juice in the car battery for restarts.

Let us also consider what other ship functions is dependent on the high bursts of power from the capacitors.

- wedge start
- entering hyper
- transiting wormholes?
- firing PDLCs
- graser fire
- other?

With the exception of transiting, every other function of the capacitor must be ready instantly. With the exception of starting the wedge, they might all be called upon at once (it isn't inconceivable wedge startup may be going on while the other systems are in use as well). If the capacitors are discharged during this event of maximum demand (even if not fully charged) something is going to suffer. You don't want to be in a position where you are fighting with, and against, inefficient power. At any rate, to finish my thought, ships sitting in orbit with mains discharged are totally useless against runaway freighters, freighter kamakazes, errant debris from any OB like attacks, yadda yadda yadda.


One thing is for certain, I had a notion in the :?: thread that posits the LDs can get close enough to the planet to snif out Beth's perfume. If Home Fleet is sitting there with cold impellers and drained mains, it is going to be Hammer Time! The Yawata Strike will be nothing in comparison; those Oysters were merely served on the half shell. The next serving will be raw!

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:04 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12968
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:Personally I see this as a non-existant issue. The 2 comp failure ships survived (one at full battle conditions), dropped their wedges and sailed on into the darkness. One we know was chased down, the other we assume was. Neither exploded due to runaway reactors or overwhelmed power systems.

The 7 (?) ships which were hulked at Spindle died almost instantly (though NOT via comp failure), and their power systems were still partially intact despite wedge and multiple system failures from extreme battle damage leaving the ships to continue uncontrollably. However, the base power systems were still intact, though I would assume many reactors had been damaged or scrammed.

Point being, we have textev of the "main" power systems surviving "dead" ships that had violent, sudden deaths. I'm not going to say that the human element is not important, because David has said he is deliberately writing the Honorverse with the human element to make it relatable and enjoyable. However we have already seen "brilliant" systems most places in the ships that are merely guided by their human operators, not controlled by them. And the power systems - the heart of the ship, should be one of them.

This is interesting Theemile. I can see a condition in which that could happen. If the power demand is close to nominal when the compensator cut out, I don't see a problem. If the ship is simply at battle conditions, but if she isn't accelerating and a high demand hasn't yet been placed on the reactors and won't be needed by any emergency or auxiliary systems, that could happen for certain.

When Entropy is balanced.

Theemile wrote:And yet, the 2nd happened in the middle of the 2nd Battle of Manticore with max engines, side walls being assaulted, missiles rolling out the back, counter missile launchers in continuous launch and PDLCs showing a Pink Floyd laser show. Does this match your description of High Demand?

I repeat, we've NEVER seen the problem you postulate in dozens of battle scenes which result in lost wedges. It just is not a normal occurrence, even in extraordinary circumstances.

The handwavium capacitors were fully charged.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:15 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12968
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:Personally I see this as a non-existant issue. The 2 comp failure ships survived (one at full battle conditions), dropped their wedges and sailed on into the darkness. One we know was chased down, the other we assume was. Neither exploded due to runaway reactors or overwhelmed power systems.

The 7 (?) ships which were hulked at Spindle died almost instantly (though NOT via comp failure), and their power systems were still partially intact despite wedge and multiple system failures from extreme battle damage leaving the ships to continue uncontrollably. However, the base power systems were still intact, though I would assume many reactors had been damaged or scrammed.

Point being, we have textev of the "main" power systems surviving "dead" ships that had violent, sudden deaths. I'm not going to say that the human element is not important, because David has said he is deliberately writing the Honorverse with the human element to make it relatable and enjoyable. However we have already seen "brilliant" systems most places in the ships that are merely guided by their human operators, not controlled by them. And the power systems - the heart of the ship, should be one of them.

This is interesting Theemile. I can see a condition in which that could happen. If the power demand is close to nominal when the compensator cut out, I don't see a problem. If the ship is simply at battle conditions, but if she isn't accelerating and a high demand hasn't yet been placed on the reactors and won't be needed by any emergency or auxiliary systems, that could happen for certain.

When Entropy is balanced.

Theemile wrote:And yet, the 2nd happened in the middle of the 2nd Battle of Manticore with max engines, side walls being assaulted, missiles rolling out the back, counter missile launchers in continuous launch and PDLCs showing a Pink Floyd laser show. Does this match your description of High Demand?

I repeat, we've NEVER seen the problem you postulate in dozens of battle scenes which result in lost wedges. It just is not a normal occurrence, even in extraordinary circumstances.

cthia wrote:The handwavium capacitors were fully charged.

Actually, maybe this situation didn't need to eat into the handwavium reserves. The ship had to be placing a very high demand on the capacitors. If they were critically discharged then it goes to motive that they are not quick-charge devices since the ship didn't explode. All of the excess power was being used to recharge the capacitors. So it would take some time before Entropy asserts itself. Since this happened in the Home System there was obviously plenty of time available to chase down the ship.

BTW, I would be surprised if the ship's capacitors are quick charge. Textev says they are capable of outputting more power than all of the reactors combined. It seems unreasonable to expect that they can be charged quickly. You can not get more energy out of a system than you put into, or have time to put into, a system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:11 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

cthia wrote:There can't be anything associated with a charging issue or it would be given in the specs. When Home Fleet is sitting in orbit, any significant time to recharge capacitors would have to be given. And since sitting in orbit is the only time I can see even a remote possibility of having discharged capacitors, I'll use it as an example. Or rather, it is the lesser of the other evils. Unless anyone else can give me any other opportune time for intentional capacitor downtime?


It's the same: any time they aren't needed and won't be in a pinch. The only question is when those times come. You seem to imply "never."

Your notion of having to abort the process of building the field - or the process being aborted for you for whatever reason - is part and parcel to my insistence the capacitors ever remain charged. It goes double for starting the wedge. If for any reason the process fails or has to be aborted, or is aborted for you, there simply must be enough juice in the car battery for restarts.


If the capacitors are needed to start the wedge and the wedge start fails, then it stands to reason the capacitors were drained and need to be recharged again. This is how Travis got the criminals not to abscond with a Havenite battlecruiser.

Even if you had capacity for two wedge starts, it wouldn't make sense. The wedge would simply be started in half the time.

Once the wedge is up, you may recharge the capacitors again, if you have further need of them.

Let's also consider what ship functions is dependent on the high burst of power from the capacitors.

- wedge start
- entering hyper
- transiting wormholes?
- firing PDLCs
- graser fire
- other?


The only one we are absolutely sure is the wedge start. All the rest is speculation, including entering hyper, for which I am to blame. We know PDLCs and grasers can't fire continuously and it's reasonable to assume that energy is the reason, at least for the grasers. But there could also be a thermal component: unless you led the focusing rods and power delivery systems cool down between shots, they will melt and you'll have no graser to fire with, even if you can supply the energy.

There's also no reason to assume that they are the same capacitors. If they were the same, you'd have to dimension them for the largest discharge need, which may make them unnecessarily expensive. For example, I think it's likely that starting the wedge needs the most energy, but the grasers need more power (bigger discharge rate). So you'd dimension the capacitor grasers for very high power dump.

Moreover, you'd put those capacitors close to where they're needed, not centralised somewhere on the ship. Doing the latter would mean you need power distribution systems to take the energy where it's needed, and again rated for the biggest power needs.

None of this means that those more capacitors would remain discharged. But having more of them to me means you have more power needs that need to be balanced.

With the exception of transiting, every other function of the capacitor must be ready instantly. With the exception of starting the wedge, they might all be called upon at once (it isn't inconceivable wedge startup may be going on while the other systems are in use as well). If the capacitors are discharged during this event of maximum demand (even if not fully charged) something is going to suffer. You don't want to be in a position where you are fighting with, and against, inefficient power. At any rate, to finish my thought, ships sitting in orbit with mains discharged are totally useless against runaway freighters, freighter kamakazes, errant debris from any OB like attacks, yadda yadda yadda.


What you said is true only if you're right that everything you listed requires capacitors to operate. As I indicated above, aside from the wedge, we don't know it to be true for anything else. Everything else could be directly powered from the fusion reactors.

PDLCs can fire 16 shots every 2 seconds, for an extended period of time. Grasers can fire every N seconds, for an extended period of time. That means that, even if there were a need to charge a capacitor for them to fire, that charge can be built up, at worst, in N seconds for grasers and 0.125 seconds for each laser in the PDLC. And this is only the worst case, where the charge is the limiting factor. If it is thermal, then a graser or PDLC could go from zero to firing in less time. This tells me those systems are as close to directly powered as possible, or they charge so quickly that it makes no difference.

One final thing: we're talking about capacitors, not batteries. Everything you've said would make a lot of sense if we were talking about batteries: keep them charged at all times. If the power generation fails, you get some extra time to fix them. And you can tap on their reserves if you need to. But capacitors are designed to build up some energy and then release quickly. The terminology doesn't fit.
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:37 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12968
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:There can't be anything associated with a charging issue or it would be given in the specs. When Home Fleet is sitting in orbit, any significant time to recharge capacitors would have to be given. And since sitting in orbit is the only time I can see even a remote possibility of having discharged capacitors, I'll use it as an example. Or rather, it is the lesser of the other evils. Unless anyone else can give me any other opportune time for intentional capacitor downtime?


It's the same: any time they aren't needed and won't be in a pinch. The only question is when those times come. You seem to imply "never."

Your notion of having to abort the process of building the field - or the process being aborted for you for whatever reason - is part and parcel to my insistence the capacitors ever remain charged. It goes double for starting the wedge. If for any reason the process fails or has to be aborted, or is aborted for you, there simply must be enough juice in the car battery for restarts.


If the capacitors are needed to start the wedge and the wedge start fails, then it stands to reason the capacitors were drained and need to be recharged again. This is how Travis got the criminals not to abscond with a Havenite battlecruiser.

Even if you had capacity for two wedge starts, it wouldn't make sense. The wedge would simply be started in half the time.

Once the wedge is up, you may recharge the capacitors again, if you have further need of them.

Let's also consider what ship functions is dependent on the high burst of power from the capacitors.

- wedge start
- entering hyper
- transiting wormholes?
- firing PDLCs
- graser fire
- other?


The only one we are absolutely sure is the wedge start. All the rest is speculation, including entering hyper, for which I am to blame. We know PDLCs and grasers can't fire continuously and it's reasonable to assume that energy is the reason, at least for the grasers. But there could also be a thermal component: unless you led the focusing rods and power delivery systems cool down between shots, they will melt and you'll have no graser to fire with, even if you can supply the energy.

There's also no reason to assume that they are the same capacitors. If they were the same, you'd have to dimension them for the largest discharge need, which may make them unnecessarily expensive. For example, I think it's likely that starting the wedge needs the most energy, but the grasers need more power (bigger discharge rate). So you'd dimension the capacitor grasers for very high power dump.

Moreover, you'd put those capacitors close to where they're needed, not centralised somewhere on the ship. Doing the latter would mean you need power distribution systems to take the energy where it's needed, and again rated for the biggest power needs.

None of this means that those more capacitors would remain discharged. But having more of them to me means you have more power needs that need to be balanced.

With the exception of transiting, every other function of the capacitor must be ready instantly. With the exception of starting the wedge, they might all be called upon at once (it isn't inconceivable wedge startup may be going on while the other systems are in use as well). If the capacitors are discharged during this event of maximum demand (even if not fully charged) something is going to suffer. You don't want to be in a position where you are fighting with, and against, inefficient power. At any rate, to finish my thought, ships sitting in orbit with mains discharged are totally useless against runaway freighters, freighter kamakazes, errant debris from any OB like attacks, yadda yadda yadda.


What you said is true only if you're right that everything you listed requires capacitors to operate. As I indicated above, aside from the wedge, we don't know it to be true for anything else. Everything else could be directly powered from the fusion reactors.

PDLCs can fire 16 shots every 2 seconds, for an extended period of time. Grasers can fire every N seconds, for an extended period of time. That means that, even if there were a need to charge a capacitor for them to fire, that charge can be built up, at worst, in N seconds for grasers and 0.125 seconds for each laser in the PDLC. And this is only the worst case, where the charge is the limiting factor. If it is thermal, then a graser or PDLC could go from zero to firing in less time. This tells me those systems are as close to directly powered as possible, or they charge so quickly that it makes no difference.

One final thing: we're talking about capacitors, not batteries. Everything you've said would make a lot of sense if we were talking about batteries: keep them charged at all times. If the power generation fails, you get some extra time to fix them. And you can tap on their reserves if you need to. But capacitors are designed to build up some energy and then release quickly. The terminology doesn't fit.

It is only an imperfect analogy, in general. I often enlist analogies that are imperfect (tlb calls me on many of them), but like him you are missing the forest for the trees. The analogy was only meant to put us on the right page.

Besides, it is a perfect analogy considering the relevant characteristics; that they both maintain high bursts of energy greater than the nominal system. They represent the main energy batteries of energy fire. Capacitors are short term high burst devices that can charge at a much faster rate than batteries. However, you can make either out of the other. You can fashion a capacitor out of a battery and vice versa. At any rate, let's keep our eye on the prize.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by tlb   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:50 pm

tlb
Admiral

Posts: 2067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

cthia wrote:Capacitors are short term high burst devices that can charge at a much faster rate than batteries. However, you can make either out of the other. You can fashion a capacitor out of a battery and vice versa. At any rate, let's keep our eye on the prize.

That seems very unlikely. Let's see you make an oscillator using a battery instead of a capacitor.
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:34 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12968
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Even if you had capacity for two wedge starts, it wouldn't make sense. The wedge would simply be started in half the time.

Huh? Why would you think that? You certainly wouldn't want restarting the wedge to drain the capacitors any more than you'd need your car's battery to deplete itself in a single attempt (simply an example). Plus, you're obviously assuming wedge start-up goes as smoothly as a foreign car's engine, instead of the craaaank craaaank craaaank of an American auto. LOL

If your notion of localized and dedicated capacitors is true, and I can support that, then the computers should still have the ability to divert power from those capacitors for use elsewhere. And vice versa. Which further stamps the validity of my notion that power distribution needs to be finely nuanced and rerouted by a warm body.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: What happens to all that debris?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:47 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Even if you had capacity for two wedge starts, it wouldn't make sense. The wedge would simply be started in half the time.

Huh? Why would you think that? You certainly wouldn't want restarting the wedge to drain the capacitors any more than you'd need your car's battery to deplete itself in a single attempt (simply an example). Plus, you're obviously assuming wedge start-up goes as smoothly as a foreign car's engine, instead of the craaaank craaaank craaaank of an American auto. LOL

If your notion of localized and dedicated capacitors is true, and I can support that, then the computers should still have the ability to divert power from those capacitors for use elsewhere. And vice versa. Which further stamps the validity of my notion that power distribution needs to be finely nuanced and rerouted by a warm body.
But start-up capacitors aren't like a car battery; so why compare them?.

If you drain the car's battery then there's nothing to spin the starter motor.

But start-up capacitors are just used to accumulate enough power over a reasonably short time to provide for a momentary peak draw that exceeds the sustained capacity of your power system; they're not designed to work in the absence of ongoing power. If you don't drain an air conditioner compressor's start-up capacitor you don't have the peak power needed to start that motor - their start-up draw might be 6 or more times the amperage of their running max draw. It doesn't make any sense to put in a 150 amp breaker and run (that's the entirety of many older house's electrical supply) just to the A/C compressor for something it needs for less than a second each startup. And if the motor fails to start, well the capacitor will be recharged and ready to try again shortly.

The capacitors you use to start the wedge also seem to work like that; but charging from the reactors of the ship rather than from the house's connection to the electrical grid. But like you line large to directly start the A/C compressor the reactors and power conduits to the impeller rooms don't appear to have the output necessary to supply the momentary start-up demand of the wedge. For that you run the power conduits at their max safe for a while dumping that power into the capacitors in/near the impeller rooms, and once you've got enough in them you dump it to kick-start the wedge. The difference seems to be that the wedge doesn't require 6 times as high an amperage but possible a several hundred times as large - hence the much longer recharge time should a wedge start-up somehow fail.
Top

Return to Honorverse