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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:43 pm

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cthia wrote:That is a disaster brewing in the pot. The MAlign could have attacked and wiped out ALL industry along with up to a third of the population in one fell swoop! I'm not even sure it could have been characterised as an EE violation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's as much a violation as a planetary target.

The mistake is to put all of it in a single station. That's a Single Point of Failure. Instead, if you have a lot of dispersed nodes, hundreds or thousands of them in orbit, the damage is minimised.

I am not sure what you are saying would be an EE violation. Destroying orbitals is not an EE violation; although civilzed nations usually give warning, so that they can be evacuated. The prime example is that Oyster Bay did not constitute such a violation, nor did what Honor do in the Sol System.

The only exception might be orbitals purely used for habitation; but once you add major manufacturing, then the station can be targeted.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:14 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:That is a disaster brewing in the pot. The MAlign could have attacked and wiped out ALL industry along with up to a third of the population in one fell swoop! I'm not even sure it could have been characterised as an EE violation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's as much a violation as a planetary target.

The mistake is to put all of it in a single station. That's a Single Point of Failure. Instead, if you have a lot of dispersed nodes, hundreds or thousands of them in orbit, the damage is minimised.

I am not sure what you are saying would be an EE violation. Destroying orbitals is not an EE violation; although civilzed nations usually give warning, so that they can be evacuated. The prime example is that Oyster Bay did not constitute such a violation, nor did what Honor do in the Sol System.

The only exception might be orbitals purely used for habitation; but once you add major manufacturing, then the station can be targeted.

You enlightened him for me, I see. His bout is with the author, or, game over man, game over!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:22 pm

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tlb wrote:I am not sure what you are saying would be an EE violation. Destroying orbitals is not an EE violation; although civilzed nations usually give warning, so that they can be evacuated. The prime example is that Oyster Bay did not constitute such a violation, nor did what Honor do in the Sol System.

The only exception might be orbitals purely used for habitation; but once you add major manufacturing, then the station can be targeted.


I don't see the difference. Attacking any non-military target with civilians aboard is a violation of the regular rules of war. Doesn't matter whether they are in orbit or down on the planet surface, or on the surface of a local moon. Similarly, after you've controlled local space and given civilians sufficient warning to evacuate, blowing those targets up can be acceptable and then it doesn't matter if they are in orbit or on the surface either. Building on the surface does not make something automatically get a Super Mario Star (invulnerability).

I would even go further and say that attacking infrastructure vital for the survivability of the population is also a violation of the rules of war, whether it is in space or not. For example, in Yeltsin's Star, you could not attack the Grayson orbital farms: that's delayed genocide through starvation.

I might be against the letter of the text and the words from RFC, but I stand my ground because I fail to see the difference. A 600 km distance and a thin layer of air is not very significant.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:33 am

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tlb wrote:I am not sure what you are saying would be an EE violation. Destroying orbitals is not an EE violation; although civilzed nations usually give warning, so that they can be evacuated. The prime example is that Oyster Bay did not constitute such a violation, nor did what Honor do in the Sol System.

The only exception might be orbitals purely used for habitation; but once you add major manufacturing, then the station can be targeted.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't see the difference. Attacking any non-military target with civilians aboard is a violation of the regular rules of war. Doesn't matter whether they are in orbit or down on the planet surface, or on the surface of a local moon. Similarly, after you've controlled local space and given civilians sufficient warning to evacuate, blowing those targets up can be acceptable and then it doesn't matter if they are in orbit or on the surface either. Building on the surface does not make something automatically get a Super Mario Star (invulnerability).

I would even go further and say that attacking infrastructure vital for the survivability of the population is also a violation of the rules of war, whether it is in space or not. For example, in Yeltsin's Star, you could not attack the Grayson orbital farms: that's delayed genocide through starvation.

I might be against the letter of the text and the words from RFC, but I stand my ground because I fail to see the difference. A 600 km distance and a thin layer of air is not very significant.

I do not disagree that it should be the case, but the rules of war change slowly. It was only after WW2 that it became counter to the rules to terror bomb a city, when the participants reacted to what had been a widespread tactic (that did not work in general).

In particular the Eridani Edict; is not so much a rule of war originally as it is a statement by the Solarian League of the following: you backward barbarians, outside of the protection of Solarian civilization, may carry on your trivial disputes without attracting the ire of the Solarian Navy; unless you step over this line to a place that we consider repugnant. The result is that the rules of war were changed to reflect the particular wording of the Edict.

Perhaps the rules will be changed again as you suggest; but until the Malign forces are found, it may not be enforceable.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:59 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't see the difference. Attacking any non-military target with civilians aboard is a violation of the regular rules of war.

How does that apply to Manticore's space-based industry in it's heyday? All of the stations were military targets. That's why they no longer exist. The asteroid belts are also military targets because they provide resources necessary to the war effort. Manticore seems to have suffered a bit from the arrogance of perceived invincibility as well.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:22 am

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cthia wrote:Manticore seems to have suffered a bit from the arrogance of perceived invincibility as well.

It is difficult to plan against unknown threats. Arrogance could imply that they should have known what could happen and there might be some of that, for example: from Manticore's knowledge of Mistletoe, there was the possibility of hooking a missile pod onto the nose of a recon drone (sort of a Cataphract with stealth and multiple independent warheads). Since that was an extension of known things, perhaps some thought could have been put into the possibilities. The graser torpedo, itself, would not have occurred to anyone, but the stealth attack pod could have done the same thing, so that does not matter.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:37 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Manticore seems to have suffered a bit from the arrogance of perceived invincibility as well.

It is difficult to plan against unknown threats. Arrogance could imply that they should have known what could happen and there might be some of that, for example: from Manticore's knowledge of Mistletoe, there was the possibility of hooking a missile pod onto the nose of a recon drone (sort of a Cataphract with stealth and multiple independent warheads). Since that was an extension of known things, perhaps some thought could have been put into the possibilities. The graser torpedo, itself, would not have occurred to anyone, but the stealth attack pod could have done the same thing, so that does not matter.

Yet the threat they overlooked is their own. As I stated in a previous post, the stations were vulnerable to accident, native born terrorists, disgruntled employees and malfunction. That alone is reason enough to spread the resources amongst the several locations in space (as ThinksMarkedly stated) and planetside.

Thing is, the RMN consistently designed it's doctrine - ship's defenses, etc., - against it's own massive fire. It should also have done the same for it's vulnerability to itself, as well as, other entities including Murphy. And that meant "spread the love out."

IOW, the RMN made the mistake of a novice as far as that is concerned.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:19 am

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Personally, I think the mistake was the intermingling of civilian and military operations in a single massive station. They should have been physically in separate stations and the military orbitals should have been maintained with bubble-walls up. I include the weapons production lines in the military sector. I do not agree that military production (or any major production) should be planet-side.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:26 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:Personally, I think the mistake was the intermingling of civilian and military operations in a single massive station. They should have been physically in separate stations and the military orbitals should have been maintained with bubble-walls up. I include the weapons production lines in the military sector. I do not agree that military production (or any major production) should be planet-side.

I agree on separating the civies from the military. But I can see the benefit having them together. If it is a civilian firm that supplies parts or consulting expertise it is a no brainer as far as efficiency if they are together. It is probably good for morale as well having some "babes" around. Even if it is your own wife.

As far as groundside, I only recommended some of the replacement parts and equipment kept groundside to rebuild the stations. And some non military industry.

Oyster Bay destroyed ALL, A-L-L, INDUSTRY. That would mean no cellphones, TVs, radios, watches, microwaves, automobiles, etc., in today's market. Nada. No toothbrushes, toothpaste. Not a single thing. Do you really want to go back to wiping your arse with rocks.

You simply do not keep all of the plates the US Treasury uses to make money out on the battlefield where they can be destroyed.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:48 pm

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cthia wrote:
tlb wrote:Personally, I think the mistake was the intermingling of civilian and military operations in a single massive station. They should have been physically in separate stations and the military orbitals should have been maintained with bubble-walls up. I include the weapons production lines in the military sector. I do not agree that military production (or any major production) should be planet-side.

I agree on separating the civies from the military. But I can see the benefit having them together. If it is a civilian firm that supplies parts or consulting expertise it is a no brainer as far as efficiency if they are together. It is probably good for morale as well having some "babes" around. Even if it is your own wife.

As far as groundside, I only recommended some of the replacement parts and equipment kept groundside to rebuild the stations. And some non military industry.

Oyster Bay destroyed ALL, A-L-L, INDUSTRY. That would mean no cellphones, TVs, radios, watches, microwaves, automobiles, etc., in today's market. Nada. No toothbrushes, toothpaste. Not a single thing. Do you really want to go back to wiping your arse with rocks.

You simply do not keep all of the plates the US Treasury uses to make money out on the battlefield where they can be destroyed.


David's backed down on the All industry destroyed bit. it's now All heavy industry that is required for shipbuilding and warfighting has been destroyed.

So the toothpaste plant survived without a scratch... but not the toothbrush plant.... :lol:
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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