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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:02 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:On that note, why didn't Manticore just hire experienced builders from Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani? The Andermani should have been able to spare a shit load of people being paid double time. It could have gone down similar to Habitat for Humanity after disasters destroy homes. Everybody who can pitches in and donates something for the needy. I've donated my Hummer after major storm damages on several occasions. It's a tax write-off, but still.


Who says they didn't?

Anyway, after the 12 million deaths from the Yawata Strike, the population of the Manticore Binary System was at least 3.588 billion, of highly-educated people with a very strong motivation to work for this goal.

The MBS needed tools and factories more than people. And we do know the allies were producing for Manticore.

See post on previous page. It's a hard pill to swallow in my medicine cabinet.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:31 pm

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Governmental borrowing vs. private/corporate.
While the majority of companies which will want to get space and restablish manufactureing and anything else (think Dempse's restaurants) on the major stations and other orbital platforms are going to have to raise funds through borrowing through banks, it is somewhat differnt at the government level. We won't get into government guarantees for corporate debtt.

Many of you will have at least heard of US Treasury Bonds, Notes and Bills. That's Bonds for long maturity (beyond 10 years), Notes start max 10 years and bills are less than a year. All of that typicaly has quaterly interest--in general. The Government is selling government debt to be paid off over time. Rates and repayment terms vary. Most governents do this to fund domestic programs, infrastructure improvements/project and other things like wars. They give "notes" payable at certain times and genearly based on the ability of the government abiilty to raise money through taxes and other sources. In the case of the SEM it's primarily on the positive cash flow & profit of the Junction and then whatever the normal tax revenues are for everything else.
Which is why High Ridge wouldn't sign a Treaty with Haven because he would have been REQUIRED under the terms of the tax laws -actualy it would have been more or less automatic- to reduce the special tax rates enacted for the War with Haven.

Sometimes the notes/bonds etc are secured by something- in this case would have 1st call on funds generated by the Junction and terminus fees. Bonds tend to be be things going to 30 years but essentialy you are giving "written" promises to pay people who are often INVESTING in the government(s). This works at National, State, City/Town levels as well as for various other governmental opeations like utility and road commissions.

In the specific case of Manticore, we understand that SEM is shipping a lot of materials (refined "scrap from earlier captured/partialy destroyed Havenite warships in the Manticore system plus parts of the destroyed Home Fleet and now all that mostly usless junk that was SLN SDs) to Beowuld in partial payment and or agreed on exchange for manufacturing all sorts of things-including parts for warships and weapons for rebuilding the Manticore orbital infrastructuer. If nothing else, providing- where they can- already refined metals and materials rendered from starship scrap will offset at least part of the cost instead of having to buy it from someone else.
But in the long term, the government is going to have to foot the bill for much of the base construction of the major stations and of course rebuilding the military manufacturing and support structure.
Private companies will need to fund their part. And much of the private manufacture will have to pay their own way. God only know how complex the leasing arrangements on a multi 10 kilometer long space station with some part of the Government as the primary owner of the "space"

You really don't want the author to go into the detail or it would be a book or two just for that- without doing much to advance the plot :)

And SEM is importing/hireing workers from at least Beowulf for contruction in their system and to help train SEM citizens in the skills etc. They need to rebuild the workforce as well as the facilities and manufacturing. They will bring people in from Talbott and Silesia if they can get them. Skills and experience.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:32 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Governmental borrowing vs. private/corporate.
While the majority of companies which will want to get space and restablish manufactureing and anything else (think Dempse's restaurants) on the major stations and other orbital platforms are going to have to raise funds through borrowing through banks, it is somewhat differnt at the government level. We won't get into government guarantees for corporate debtt.

Many of you will have at least heard of US Treasury Bonds, Notes and Bills. That's Bonds for long maturity (beyond 10 years), Notes start max 10 years and bills are less than a year. All of that typicaly has quaterly interest--in general. The Government is selling government debt to be paid off over time. Rates and repayment terms vary. Most governents do this to fund domestic programs, infrastructure improvements/project and other things like wars. They give "notes" payable at certain times and genearly based on the ability of the government abiilty to raise money through taxes and other sources. In the case of the SEM it's primarily on the positive cash flow & profit of the Junction and then whatever the normal tax revenues are for everything else.
Which is why High Ridge wouldn't sign a Treaty with Haven because he would have been REQUIRED under the terms of the tax laws -actualy it would have been more or less automatic- to reduce the special tax rates enacted for the War with Haven.

Sometimes the notes/bonds etc are secured by something- in this case would have 1st call on funds generated by the Junction and terminus fees. Bonds tend to be be things going to 30 years but essentialy you are giving "written" promises to pay people who are often INVESTING in the government(s). This works at National, State, City/Town levels as well as for various other governmental opeations like utility and road commissions.

In the specific case of Manticore, we understand that SEM is shipping a lot of materials (refined "scrap from earlier captured/partialy destroyed Havenite warships in the Manticore system plus parts of the destroyed Home Fleet and now all that mostly usless junk that was SLN SDs) to Beowuld in partial payment and or agreed on exchange for manufacturing all sorts of things-including parts for warships and weapons for rebuilding the Manticore orbital infrastructuer. If nothing else, providing- where they can- already refined metals and materials rendered from starship scrap will offset at least part of the cost instead of having to buy it from someone else.
But in the long term, the government is going to have to foot the bill for much of the base construction of the major stations and of course rebuilding the military manufacturing and support structure.
Private companies will need to fund their part. And much of the private manufacture will have to pay their own way. God only know how complex the leasing arrangements on a multi 10 kilometer long space station with some part of the Government as the primary owner of the "space"

You really don't want the author to go into the detail or it would be a book or two just for that- without doing much to advance the plot :)

And SEM is importing/hireing workers from at least Beowulf for contruction in their system and to help train SEM citizens in the skills etc. They need to rebuild the workforce as well as the facilities and manufacturing. They will bring people in from Talbott and Silesia if they can get them. Skills and experience.

Very interesting post XO. As usual. I'm not certain funding for any company which was previously lost on either Station would be a problem. I'd think any company would be highly insured. Premiums were probably through the roof, but everyone was damn thankful to have paid them when they're needed. I think I recall that Dempsey's is a chain. I'm not sure how many locations (maybe just two, one on each Station) counting any ground side. At any rate, chains tend to be stronger. Also in Dempsey's favor is the fact it was a naval favorite, and it is well experienced in catering to the navy. There must be a deluge of anti-snooping and privacy devices incorporated into their outfit. All of that conspires to make it quite easy to reset, even if it does mean having to acquire a government loan. And loans shouldn't be a problem since Manticore apparently isn't hurting as we all thought it would be. The MWJ is simply the source of too much funding. And since the author is adamant about no fee increases on the junction, then that surplus of cash Manticore has always had to deal with by finding something to invest in, then loans are pretty much guaranteed.

I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:35 pm

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cthia wrote:I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

Since almost all manufacturing was on the space stations (particularly HMSS Hephaestus), arms manufacturers would certainly be there. That way raw materials do not have to be brought to the surface.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:48 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

Since almost all manufacturing was on the space stations (particularly HMSS Hephaestus), arms manufacturers would certainly be there. That way raw materials do not have to be brought to the surface.

All manufacturing? There's nothing being made on planet? I wouldn't think arms manufacturers would be on the station because compromising them would compromise the station.

It's in part related to why I have a hard time believing replacement parts and tools to rebuild the station was all lost with the station. Space Stations would have to be some dangerous places to be. Not simply because of war, but by terrorist attacks, disgruntled employees, accidents or negligence.* Putting everything on the Space Station is like putting all of your eggs in a dangerous basket. It just seems so irresponsible and short-sighted to me.

*Or drunk drivers. Can't tell me alcohol is a missing spirit in the HV.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:28 pm

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cthia wrote:I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

tlb wrote:Since almost all manufacturing was on the space stations (particularly HMSS Hephaestus), arms manufacturers would certainly be there. That way raw materials do not have to be brought to the surface.

cthia wrote:All manufacturing? There's nothing being made on planet? I wouldn't think arms manufacturers would be on the station because compromising them would compromise the station.

It's in part related to why I have a hard time believing replacement parts and tools to rebuild the station was all lost with the station. Space Stations would have to be some dangerous places to be. Not simply because of war, but by terrorist attacks, disgruntled employees, accidents or negligence.* Putting everything on the Space Station is like putting all of your eggs in a dangerous basket. It just seems so irresponsible and short-sighted to me.

*Or drunk drivers. Can't tell me alcohol is a missing spirit in the HV.

We have discussed this before and there were people insistent that there must be manufacturing planet-side. I do not have evidence in either direction, but I am certain there were others who could quote from RFC that this was not the case. Neither were there other stations of a private nature that Oyster Bay had not impacted.

Please let us known if I remembered that incorrectly.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:03 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

tlb wrote:Since almost all manufacturing was on the space stations (particularly HMSS Hephaestus), arms manufacturers would certainly be there. That way raw materials do not have to be brought to the surface.

cthia wrote:All manufacturing? There's nothing being made on planet? I wouldn't think arms manufacturers would be on the station because compromising them would compromise the station.

It's in part related to why I have a hard time believing replacement parts and tools to rebuild the station was all lost with the station. Space Stations would have to be some dangerous places to be. Not simply because of war, but by terrorist attacks, disgruntled employees, accidents or negligence.* Putting everything on the Space Station is like putting all of your eggs in a dangerous basket. It just seems so irresponsible and short-sighted to me.

*Or drunk drivers. Can't tell me alcohol is a missing spirit in the HV.

We have discussed this before and there were people insistent that there must be manufacturing planet-side. I do not have evidence in either direction, but I am certain there were others who could quote from RFC that this was not the case. Neither were there other stations of a private nature that Oyster Bay had not impacted.

Please let us known if I remembered that incorrectly.

Sorry, but I don't recall that discussion. I may be wrong, but isn't it inferred? "Orbital" industries seem to suggest there are other type of industries which are not orbital. I suppose it could be assimilated to mean it is implying that all industry is indeed orbital. But then, what is left for all of the other non-space trained and oriented people planetside? And, schools are still located groundside which means school kids are too. But if all industry is in space, then there are lots of latchkey kids on planet. If so, traffic between planet and groundside is enormous. And there is no way it is all evacuated in time of war.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:09 pm

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cthia wrote:I'd expect Space Stations to be wholly owned by the government so the government can set rules and regulations. I'd also expect the government to want to cherry pick what companies can operate on the station. You're not going to want cannabis stores on the station, legal or not. I wouldn't expect any arms manufacturers to be aboard either. At any rate, I'd think the stations are most likely government financed, but they seek investors which would be ripe for the opportunity. A major restaurant chain aboard a space station is crucial. Like strip malls.

Anyone think the stations were privately owned?

tlb wrote:Since almost all manufacturing was on the space stations (particularly HMSS Hephaestus), arms manufacturers would certainly be there. That way raw materials do not have to be brought to the surface.

cthia wrote:All manufacturing? There's nothing being made on planet? I wouldn't think arms manufacturers would be on the station because compromising them would compromise the station.

It's in part related to why I have a hard time believing replacement parts and tools to rebuild the station was all lost with the station. Space Stations would have to be some dangerous places to be. Not simply because of war, but by terrorist attacks, disgruntled employees, accidents or negligence.* Putting everything on the Space Station is like putting all of your eggs in a dangerous basket. It just seems so irresponsible and short-sighted to me.

*Or drunk drivers. Can't tell me alcohol is a missing spirit in the HV.

tlb wrote:We have discussed this before and there were people insistent that there must be manufacturing planet-side. I do not have evidence in either direction, but I am certain there were others who could quote from RFC that this was not the case. Neither were there other stations of a private nature that Oyster Bay had not impacted.

Please let us known if I remembered that incorrectly.

cthia wrote:Sorry, but I don't recall that discussion. I may be wrong, but isn't it inferred? "Orbital" industries seem to suggest there are other type of industries which are not orbital. I suppose it could be assimilated to mean it is implying that all industry is indeed orbital. But then, what is left for all of the other non-space trained and oriented people planetside? And, schools are still located groundside which means school kids are too. But if all industry is in space, then there are lots of latchkey kids on planet. And traffic between planet and groundside is enormous. And there is no way it is all evacuated in time of war.

Sorry, I did not intend to mean that you and I have had this discussion; although I was involved and perhaps you were also. I meant that members of the forum have had this discussion in one of the threads. I do not know if I can find it.

Here is that earlier thread:
Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment
Last edited by tlb on Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:12 pm

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cthia wrote:I think I recall that Dempsey's is a chain. I'm not sure how many locations (maybe just two, one on each Station) counting any ground side. At any rate, chains tend to be stronger. Also in Dempsey's favor is the fact it was a naval favorite, and it is well experienced in catering to the navy.

Oh it's way more than two (and honestly more than I'd remembered before finding this looking for the text I have as the 2nd quote)
Field of Dishonor wrote:Dempsey's Restaurants, Inc., had been the original flagship corporation of the Dempsey Cartel, second only to the Hauptman Cartel in wealth and power, and virtually every city in the Kingdom boasted at least one Dempsey's of its own. They were everywhere, and everyone knew them

Field of Dishonor wrote:Sophisticated holo projections outside the casement "windows" displayed ever-changing planetary panoramas, and it was Monday, which meant the bar was "on" Sphinx. The cold, blue skies of autumn soared over the spires of Yawata Crossing, Sphinx's second largest city, and traffic and pedestrian noises drifted in through open windows on artfully cool breezes that smelled of live greenery and sidewalk-cafe cooking. Dempsey's holos never repeated themselves, either. Unlike the constructs less discerning owners might have used, they were broadcast from or recorded at other units of the chain on Manticore, Sphinx, and Gryphon, which gave them specific locations and complete spontaneity. Diners could—and did—sit for hours watching ground-side places they often knew well, and Manticore and Sphinx were close enough to Hephaestus to allow near real-time transmission.
So there should be no issue with Dempsey's, at least, putting in restaurants once the stations are rebuilt.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:02 am

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tlb wrote:We have discussed this before and there were people insistent that there must be manufacturing planet-side. I do not have evidence in either direction, but I am certain there were others who could quote from RFC that this was not the case. Neither were there other stations of a private nature that Oyster Bay had not impacted.

Please let us known if I remembered that incorrectly.

I also seem to recall those discussions about location of Manticore's industry (orbital vs planetary) as some very lengthy threads with lots of arguments with RFC explaining that for economic (most of the raw material came from space so only shipping down finished products was far more efficient) and environmental reasons almost all the heavy and even much of the light industry was orbital.
But I'm now guessing it predated my attempts to keep copies of RFC posts before they fell off the board. There is a post saved in the infodumps from April 13, 2010 - The impact of Oyster Bay on Manticoran and Grayson industry, and it was probably part of the arguments in those threads. (My oldest saved RFC post was from 2011 - and I believe the threads had likely petered out before then)

So despite all the keywords I could think of, and then skimming a fair bit of the cache, the only thing I really found about orbital industry in my cache of RFC posts was this tidbit from 2018
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:55 pm Re: SPOILER end of the MA wrote:No, you are missing the point that the majority of industry, even in Verge systems, is located in space and that means infrastructure in their asteroid belt. In the Honorverse, planet-based industry is the exception, although a forward thinking systems with strategic concerns will build some of it at the bottom of a gravity well to give them a cushion in the event of a Yawata Strike scenario.

I did find a post from 2015 reminding folks that while Blackbird yards got destroyed, and with it most Grayson's primary modern industrial node, the older orbital industry in Grayson orbit survived; so they didn't take as large a hit to their industrial capacity as Manticore did.

But couldn't find any of the rest of his posts about orbital vs planetside industry that I believe did form part of what I recall as some quite lengthy threads.




And also - I blame you both ;) for flashbacks to various endless arguments over the last 9 years I got from skimming through that cache; for example about a return of frigates or special scout frigates back in 2011/2012 - so, so, many posts from RFC explaining why that wasn't going to happen and wasn't actually practical. :D
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