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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:12 am

cthia
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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:Oh, it's almost a given the fees were raised countless times before. That fact makes it even more unfathomable that they wouldn't be raised NOW. After the most incredulous losses ever incurred by the system? Which, quite frankly, has left the MBS quite vulnerable. More vulnerable than it has ever been in a long long hands of hands. All while under threat from perhaps their biggest foe of all time.

Sure, the Havenites are throwing in with them. But what if something happens to that bank and they can no longer borrow from the Havenites? That doesn't necessarily mean the Peeps will turn coat again, but they can be attacked and taken out too. And Bolthole as well. It is imperative that the MBS is rebuilt as quickly as possible.

Besides, is it unreasonable to temporarily raise fees while informing everyone concerned that it is only temporary, then making everyone happy when they are reduced?

Besides, who in the galaxy wouldn't even expect it? Considering all what was lost.


I'm sure by now, the galaxy has had long experiences of "temporary" taxes which turn out to be anything but. Until they actually do go away, the better assumption is that they're permanent. High Ridge can be thanked for recently stringing out that "temporary" tax from the first war until a second one started.

The main problem with raising fees at this point is that much of the junction's traffic stopped due to the Solarian war. Whatever the fees were, they couldn't pay them and transit. So all those ships went to do something else and it will take time to reset.

Keeping the fees lower arguably encourages them to return sooner rather than later.

If the rest of the galaxy expects raised fees, so much the better. Good PR and improved relations on the interstellar stage are very important to Manticore. They can't look like they're using their newfound naval dominance to push fees where they've never been.

Yes, but High Ridge was a Manticoran oddity who was born with a brain defect. The Manticoran government has sewn good seeds in the galaxy, and nobody would have had reason to doubt their promise. Besides, if a shipping line is operating so close to the red line that a junction increase would kill them, they're dead already. Most shipping lines make far too much money to throw in the towel. Besides, junction charges are part of overall shipping costs and the extra costs will be passed on to the consumer across the board.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:23 am

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cthia wrote:Oh, it's almost a given the fees were raised countless times before. That fact makes it even more unfathomable that they wouldn't be raised NOW. After the most incredulous losses ever incurred by the system? Which, quite frankly, has left the MBS quite vulnerable. More vulnerable than it has ever been in a long long hands of hands. All while under threat from perhaps their biggest foe of all time.


Wait, vulnerable? To what?

This is the first system to be defended by Mycroft-controlled Apollo-capable 4-stage MDMs. There's nothing that shows up on sensors -- which Manticore has always had the best and most sensitive of -- that can't be intercepted within 10 minutes.

It has already survived the biggest foe, if "biggest" is counted as number of hulls and total tonnage available. If the Constitutional amendment the Mandarins had proposed had passed, the GA would have been in dire straights indeed.

What they're facing now is not the biggest, but the most ruthless foe and they will need all the help from Princess Ruth to find them. I will agree with your upcoming argument that the RMN has little idea of the capabilities of the MAN at this point, so it can't be certain that its defences suffice. But the same argument applies in the reverse direction: the MAN doesn't know how its stealth will fare now that the RMN is forewarned (and that the dynamic duo at the top of Colin's Assassination List hasn't been assassinated).

Sure, the Havenites are throwing in with them. But what if something happens to that bank and they can no longer borrow from the Havenites? That doesn't necessarily mean the Peeps will turn coat again, but they can be attacked and taken out too. And Bolthole as well. It is imperative that the MBS is rebuilt as quickly as possible.


They're not borrowing from the Havenites. That's the one economy in the GA that was in worst shape. If they're borrowing from any ally, it's the Andermani and Beowulf. At least before the Beowulf Strike, the Beowulf economy was likely the single most prosperous economy in the Settled Galaxy for any single star system. And the Strike struck at habitats, not the means of production.

More importantly, the debt is already incurred at this point. Someone has already lent money to the Manties. What they need to do is pay it now, reduce their foreign and domestic debt.

Besides, is it unreasonable to temporarily raise fees while informing everyone concerned that it is only temporary, then making everyone happy when they are reduced?

Besides, who in the galaxy wouldn't even expect it? Considering all what was lost.


No, it's not unreasonable. It's totally reasonable.

But as munroburton said above, the political calculation was to not increase. They may even have been able to reduce a little.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:53 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Oh, it's almost a given the fees were raised countless times before. That fact makes it even more unfathomable that they wouldn't be raised NOW. After the most incredulous losses ever incurred by the system? Which, quite frankly, has left the MBS quite vulnerable. More vulnerable than it has ever been in a long long hands of hands. All while under threat from perhaps their biggest foe of all time.


Wait, vulnerable? To what?

This is the first system to be defended by Mycroft-controlled Apollo-capable 4-stage MDMs. There's nothing that shows up on sensors -- which Manticore has always had the best and most sensitive of -- that can't be intercepted within 10 minutes.

It has already survived the biggest foe, if "biggest" is counted as number of hulls and total tonnage available. If the Constitutional amendment the Mandarins had proposed had passed, the GA would have been in dire straights indeed.

What they're facing now is not the biggest, but the most ruthless foe and they will need all the help from Princess Ruth to find them. I will agree with your upcoming argument that the RMN has little idea of the capabilities of the MAN at this point, so it can't be certain that its defences suffice. But the same argument applies in the reverse direction: the MAN doesn't know how its stealth will fare now that the RMN is forewarned (and that the dynamic duo at the top of Colin's Assassination List hasn't been assassinated).

Sure, the Havenites are throwing in with them. But what if something happens to that bank and they can no longer borrow from the Havenites? That doesn't necessarily mean the Peeps will turn coat again, but they can be attacked and taken out too. And Bolthole as well. It is imperative that the MBS is rebuilt as quickly as possible.


They're not borrowing from the Havenites. That's the one economy in the GA that was in worst shape. If they're borrowing from any ally, it's the Andermani and Beowulf. At least before the Beowulf Strike, the Beowulf economy was likely the single most prosperous economy in the Settled Galaxy for any single star system. And the Strike struck at habitats, not the means of production.

More importantly, the debt is already incurred at this point. Someone has already lent money to the Manties. What they need to do is pay it now, reduce their foreign and domestic debt.

Besides, is it unreasonable to temporarily raise fees while informing everyone concerned that it is only temporary, then making everyone happy when they are reduced?

Besides, who in the galaxy wouldn't even expect it? Considering all what was lost.


No, it's not unreasonable. It's totally reasonable.

But as munroburton said above, the political calculation was to not increase. They may even have been able to reduce a little.

Not borrowing from the Havenites? Bolthole! The Manties have no more R&D and the production lines are gone. At the end of the last war, Manticore was vulnerable to an extended engagement without outside help. So they are borrowing the Havenites entire production facilities, plus the safety in it's location. They are borrowing goods and services. Regardless of whether they're paying for it or not. They were paying out their anal orfices for their own R&D in astronomical costs as well. At any rate, they are entirely reliant upon it. That makes them vulnerable. China just taught America that lesson as well.

They are the biggest because they are the most ruthless and the most trouble.

Honor's biggest enemy wasn't because he had hardware, Pavel Young and family was also quite ruthless.

And I've a feeling we haven't really seen ruthless yet.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Not borrowing from the Havenites? Bolthole! The Manties have no more R&D and the production lines are gone. At the end of the last war, Manticore was vulnerable to an extended engagement without outside help. So they are borrowing the Havenites entire production facilities, plus the safety in it's location. They are borrowing goods and services. Regardless of whether they're paying for it or not. They were paying out their anal orfices for their own R&D in astronomical costs as well. At any rate, they are entirely reliant upon it. That makes them vulnerable. China just taught America that lesson as well.


Ah, you're talking about borrowing in natura. I was thinking more of borrowing in specie: dollars and other fiduciary instruments. But they're also paying in natura since they're giving the Havenites a lot of technology.

In any case, that was mid-1922. Those 6 new stations will be online in another T-year or two from the end of UH. The window of vulnerability, if any, closes very quickly.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:29 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Not borrowing from the Havenites? Bolthole! The Manties have no more R&D and the production lines are gone. At the end of the last war, Manticore was vulnerable to an extended engagement without outside help. So they are borrowing the Havenites entire production facilities, plus the safety in it's location. They are borrowing goods and services. Regardless of whether they're paying for it or not. They were paying out their anal orfices for their own R&D in astronomical costs as well. At any rate, they are entirely reliant upon it. That makes them vulnerable. China just taught America that lesson as well.


Ah, you're talking about borrowing in natura. I was thinking more of borrowing in specie: dollars and other fiduciary instruments. But they're also paying in natura since they're giving the Havenites a lot of technology.

In any case, that was mid-1922. Those 6 new stations will be online in another T-year or two from the end of UH. The window of vulnerability, if any, closes very quickly.

Paying a rental fee for what you borrow is irrelevant. A borrower you still are. Payment in cash or tech is still payment. Payment in tech is a higher price to pay. I'd rather pay cash.

Why would, indeed how could, you think I was talking about borrowing money? Regarding the richest system in the Galaxy. Heck, Hauptman could fund the war effort on his own. LOL The population can sustain the war effort thru the largest tax hike in history. LOL Manticore is so rich they literally bought a whole system. Grayson.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:56 pm

ThinksMarkedly
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cthia wrote:Why would, indeed how could, you think I was talking about borrowing money? Regarding the richest system in the Galaxy. Heck, Hauptman could fund the war effort on his own. LOL The population can sustain the war effort thru the largest tax hike in history. LOL Manticore is so rich they literally bought a whole system. Grayson.


Because we were talking about raising the Junction transit fees in light of the need to reconstruct. You wrote:

Not borrowing from the Havenites? Bolthole! The Manties have no more R&D and the production lines are gone. At the end of the last war, Manticore was vulnerable to an extended engagement without outside help. So they are borrowing the Havenites entire production facilities, plus the safety in it's location. They are borrowing goods and services. Regardless of whether they're paying for it or not. They were paying out their anal orfices for their own R&D in astronomical costs as well. At any rate, they are entirely reliant upon it. That makes them vulnerable. China just taught America that lesson as well.


In light of what you just said, I can read your paragraph talking about borrowing production lines and facilities until the new stations are ready. But it was a non-sequitur when we were talking about Junction fees and funding.

When your paragraph started with "borrowing," I assumed it was a continuation of the same argument, about funding the reconstruction and using the Havenite industries to fund cash flow to the RoH government.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:26 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Why would, indeed how could, you think I was talking about borrowing money? Regarding the richest system in the Galaxy. Heck, Hauptman could fund the war effort on his own. LOL The population can sustain the war effort thru the largest tax hike in history. LOL Manticore is so rich they literally bought a whole system. Grayson.


Because we were talking about raising the Junction transit fees in light of the need to reconstruct. You wrote:

Not borrowing from the Havenites? Bolthole! The Manties have no more R&D and the production lines are gone. At the end of the last war, Manticore was vulnerable to an extended engagement without outside help. So they are borrowing the Havenites entire production facilities, plus the safety in it's location. They are borrowing goods and services. Regardless of whether they're paying for it or not. They were paying out their anal orfices for their own R&D in astronomical costs as well. At any rate, they are entirely reliant upon it. That makes them vulnerable. China just taught America that lesson as well.


In light of what you just said, I can read your paragraph talking about borrowing production lines and facilities until the new stations are ready. But it was a non-sequitur when we were talking about Junction fees and funding.

When your paragraph started with "borrowing," I assumed it was a continuation of the same argument, about funding the reconstruction and using the Havenite industries to fund cash flow to the RoH government.

No, it wasn't a non sequitur. Yes, we were talking about raising the junction fees, because I opened this train of thought by questioning the author's adamance that the fees wouldn't be, shouldn't be, raised. I was continuing my train of thought by explaining why I think they should have been raised.

The MBS needs to have been reforged as quickly as possible. I thought making it rain harder with extra funding might have helped.

On that note, why didn't Manticore just hire experienced builders from Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani? The Andermani should have been able to spare a shit load of people being paid double time. It could have gone down similar to Habitat for Humanity after disasters destroy homes. Everybody who can pitches in and donates something for the needy. I've donated my Hummer after major storm damages on several occasions. It's a tax write-off, but still.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:47 pm

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cthia wrote:On that note, why didn't Manticore just hire experienced builders from Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani? The Andermani should have been able to spare a shit load of people being paid double time. It could have gone down similar to Habitat for Humanity after disasters destroy homes. Everybody who can pitches in and donates something for the needy. I've donated my Hummer after major storm damages on several occasions. It's a tax write-off, but still.

I believe they did bring in some outside builders. But the problem is putting up a new station is less like throwing up a single family home and more like a cross between building a major commercial building and emplacing a deep sea drilling rig.

It requires specialized heavy equipment that's in pretty limited availability and many of the materials and components are long lead time items. All the volunteer builders in the universe don't help when you're stuck waiting for the components to arrive and the heavy machinery necessary to assemble them to become available. (Not to mention throwing the stations up is of limited use if you don't yet have all the speciated heavy machine tools to actually equip the replacement shipyards - replace the missile production lines - and the like)
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:51 am

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:On that note, why didn't Manticore just hire experienced builders from Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani? The Andermani should have been able to spare a shit load of people being paid double time. It could have gone down similar to Habitat for Humanity after disasters destroy homes. Everybody who can pitches in and donates something for the needy. I've donated my Hummer after major storm damages on several occasions. It's a tax write-off, but still.

I believe they did bring in some outside builders. But the problem is putting up a new station is less like throwing up a single family home and more like a cross between building a major commercial building and emplacing a deep sea drilling rig.

It requires specialized heavy equipment that's in pretty limited availability and many of the materials and components are long lead time items. All the volunteer builders in the universe don't help when you're stuck waiting for the components to arrive and the heavy machinery necessary to assemble them to become available. (Not to mention throwing the stations up is of limited use if you don't yet have all the speciated heavy machine tools to actually equip the replacement shipyards - replace the missile production lines - and the like)

That's another hard pill to swallow I need to stash in my medicine cabinet.

Do you remember that song, "In the year 2525" *

Well, what, there ain't no Lowe's or Home Depot, or whatever the brand name of the equipment and tool warehouse is in the HV? You mean the richest system in history couldn't afford to stockpile replacement parts, indeed replacement equipment on planet? You mean there isn't a business who has a patent on, and making a killing producing, Space Station building equipment? It should be someone's cash cow. And they should have several of whatever was needed sitting in a warehouse somewhere on planet. Even if "some assembly required."

*Incidentally, the album's name is Exordium et Terminus. That gives us some insight into the songs on the MA's playlist while they're sitting on stakeouts in a hole in space.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:48 pm

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cthia wrote:On that note, why didn't Manticore just hire experienced builders from Haven, Beowulf and the Andermani? The Andermani should have been able to spare a shit load of people being paid double time. It could have gone down similar to Habitat for Humanity after disasters destroy homes. Everybody who can pitches in and donates something for the needy. I've donated my Hummer after major storm damages on several occasions. It's a tax write-off, but still.


Who says they didn't?

Anyway, after the 12 million deaths from the Yawata Strike, the population of the Manticore Binary System was at least 3.588 billion, of highly-educated people with a very strong motivation to work for this goal.

The MBS needed tools and factories more than people. And we do know the allies were producing for Manticore.
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