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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:18 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm talking about when the entire lot of them left for Darius.


By that point the MAlign already had quite a lot of money stashed away. And as mentioned, Solarian money isn't useful in Darius since it's cut off from the galactic economy; the colonisation effort needed technology, physical assets, and people.

They've had nearly 2 centuries to colonise it. If they did it only a little every year, they probably managed to stay below the radar, at least until Houdini. And besides, if it was detected, what would anyone do about it? What action can you take after discovering it?
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:42 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm talking about when the entire lot of them left for Darius.


By that point the MAlign already had quite a lot of money stashed away. And as mentioned, Solarian money isn't useful in Darius since it's cut off from the galactic economy; the colonisation effort needed technology, physical assets, and people.

They've had nearly 2 centuries to colonise it. If they did it only a little every year, they probably managed to stay below the radar, at least until Houdini. And besides, if it was detected, what would anyone do about it? What action can you take after discovering it?

Someone else also said the money wasn't useful on Darius, true. But it'd be useful when the many agents returned for various business. I don't need the many currencies I've amassed from several countries either, until I return. Leaving had to be a huge operation, and a ship would need to be bought or chartered. I suppose you don't have to file flight plans in the HV, but such a huge expedition generates lots of paperwork. And, either the captain of the ship and crew were in on it, or they were held captive when they arrived. They could not be allowed to leave.

They would have to continue to make trips to Mesa to resupply until Darius became self-sufficient and that doesn't happen overnight. Equipment breaks. Also, they probably didn't find out about some of the equipment they needed until some time after they arrived. Like what happened with Grayson.

Also, the initial expedition to Darius wasn't an emergency like Houdini. It should have been a bit more gentle and humane. Entire families couldn't be taken, so they needed to have time to provide for offspring, or other family members you'd be leaving behind but couldn't inform that you'll never see them again. I think everyone is overlooking a lot of the little details. Brigade XO fleshed a lot of it out.

A lot of the amassed fortune would be spent. Accounts would be drained. The local bank on Mesa would suffer losing these deposits day after day. Banks don't operate in a vacuum. There are lots of logistics to consider.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:57 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:By that point the MAlign already had quite a lot of money stashed away. And as mentioned, Solarian money isn't useful in Darius since it's cut off from the galactic economy; the colonisation effort needed technology, physical assets, and people.

They've had nearly 2 centuries to colonise it. If they did it only a little every year, they probably managed to stay below the radar, at least until Houdini. And besides, if it was detected, what would anyone do about it? What action can you take after discovering it?

cthia wrote:Someone else also said the money wasn't useful on Darius, true. But it'd be useful when the many agents returned for various business. I don't need the many currencies I've amassed from several countries either, until I return. Leaving had to be a huge operation, and a ship would need to be bought or chartered. I suppose you don't have to file flight plans in the HV, but such a huge expedition generates lots of paperwork. And, either the captain of the ship and crew were in on it, or they were held captive when they arrived. They could not be allowed to leave.

They would have to continue to make trips to Mesa to resupply until Darius became self-sufficient and that doesn't happen overnight. Equipment breaks. Also, they probably didn't find out about some of the equipment they needed until some time after they arrived. Like what happened with Grayson.

Also, the initial expedition to Darius wasn't an emergency like Houdini. It should have been a bit more gentle and humane. Entire families couldn't be taken, so they needed to have time to provide for offspring, or other family members you'd be leaving behind but couldn't inform that you'll never see them again. I think everyone is overlooking a lot of the little details. Brigade XO fleshed a lot of it out.

A lot of the amassed fortune would be spent. Accounts would be drained. The local bank on Mesa would suffer losing these deposits day after day. Banks don't operate in a vacuum. There are lots of logistics to consider.

I hope we shall see one way or another in the next book (or books) with Eric Flint. However I expect the Malign accountants and logisticians are perhaps Beta level.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:23 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:By that point the MAlign already had quite a lot of money stashed away. And as mentioned, Solarian money isn't useful in Darius since it's cut off from the galactic economy; the colonisation effort needed technology, physical assets, and people.

They've had nearly 2 centuries to colonise it. If they did it only a little every year, they probably managed to stay below the radar, at least until Houdini. And besides, if it was detected, what would anyone do about it? What action can you take after discovering it?

cthia wrote:Someone else also said the money wasn't useful on Darius, true. But it'd be useful when the many agents returned for various business. I don't need the many currencies I've amassed from several countries either, until I return. Leaving had to be a huge operation, and a ship would need to be bought or chartered. I suppose you don't have to file flight plans in the HV, but such a huge expedition generates lots of paperwork. And, either the captain of the ship and crew were in on it, or they were held captive when they arrived. They could not be allowed to leave.

They would have to continue to make trips to Mesa to resupply until Darius became self-sufficient and that doesn't happen overnight. Equipment breaks. Also, they probably didn't find out about some of the equipment they needed until some time after they arrived. Like what happened with Grayson.

Also, the initial expedition to Darius wasn't an emergency like Houdini. It should have been a bit more gentle and humane. Entire families couldn't be taken, so they needed to have time to provide for offspring, or other family members you'd be leaving behind but couldn't inform that you'll never see them again. I think everyone is overlooking a lot of the little details. Brigade XO fleshed a lot of it out.

A lot of the amassed fortune would be spent. Accounts would be drained. The local bank on Mesa would suffer losing these deposits day after day. Banks don't operate in a vacuum. There are lots of logistics to consider.

I hope we shall see one way or another in the next book (or books) with Eric Flint. However I expect the Malign accountants and logisticians are perhaps Beta level.

Operating under the direction of an Alpha. From one particular passage in one of the books, I got the impression that failures may be rewarded with walking a malignant plank.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:16 am

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tlb wrote:I hope we shall see one way or another in the next book (or books) with Eric Flint. However I expect the Malign accountants and logisticians are perhaps Beta level.

cthia wrote:Operating under the direction of an Alpha. From one particular passage in one of the books, I got the impression that failures may be rewarded with walking a malignant plank.

Please point up to that text, so we can see if our impressions match yours.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:33 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:I hope we shall see one way or another in the next book (or books) with Eric Flint. However I expect the Malign accountants and logisticians are perhaps Beta level.

cthia wrote:Operating under the direction of an Alpha. From one particular passage in one of the books, I got the impression that failures may be rewarded with walking a malignant plank.

Please point up to that text, so we can see if our impressions match yours.

I will try and do that today, but I have to don a SCBA suit to go out into the world for business. I'm not sure of the book or the scene, but I'm fairly confident it is UH. It had something to do with an excuse given to Detweiler that there was no way to have foreseen the variable. I think the variable is either something Cachat and Victor did, or Henke, I think. He pauses, obviously annoyed, then yields and says something to the effect, "I suppose there was no way of foreseeing that."

Which made me think that he expects Alphas to be able to foresee most things. I remember thinking what would have happened if he HAD thought it had been foreseeable.

The excuse was given after he asked what went wrong.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:10 am

tlb
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tlb wrote:I hope we shall see one way or another in the next book (or books) with Eric Flint. However I expect the Malign accountants and logisticians are perhaps Beta level.

cthia wrote:Operating under the direction of an Alpha. From one particular passage in one of the books, I got the impression that failures may be rewarded with walking a malignant plank.

tlb wrote:Please point up to that text, so we can see if our impressions match yours.

cthia wrote:I will try and do that today, but I have to don a SCBA suit to go out into the world for business. I'm not sure of the book or the scene, but I'm fairly confident it is UH. It had something to do with an excuse given to Detweiler that there was no way to have foreseen the variable. I think the variable is either something Cachat and Victor did, or Henke, I think. He pauses, obviously annoyed, then yields and says something to the effect, "I suppose there was no way of foreseeing that."

Which made me think that he expects Alphas to be able to foresee most things. I remember thinking what would have happened if he HAD thought it had been foreseeable.

The excuse was given after he asked what went wrong.

Are you thinking of something like the following from At All Costs, chapter 47?
"The second possibility," she continued unflinchingly, "is that the penetration was on our side of the operation. In that case, the most likely scenario is that this Terekhov literally stumbled over the Marianne."
"Marianne?" Detweiler repeated.
"The special ops ship we were using to deliver weapons to our proxies," Bardasano explained. "We've used her and her crew dozens of times before. They're reliable and experienced in this sort of covert operation, and using our own ship and our own people let us maintain a far lower profile and avoid an entire additional layer of potential leaks."
"So why do you think she could be involved?"
"Because she's the only direct link between our terrorist proxies and Monica." Bardasano shrugged. "Izrok needed emergency transportation for additional shipyard technicians. Marianne was already headed for the Cluster. He asked me if we could transport them for him, and I agreed. Apparently, I shouldn't have."
She made the admission without flinching, and a flicker of what might have been approval showed in Detweiler's eyes.
"If she is the clue the Manties picked up on," she continued, "they must have taken at least some of her personnel and sweated them. They don't actually know anything about the Monican side of the operation, but they do know they delivered technicians to Monica. That could have been enough. Unfortunately, we probably won't know whether or not that's what actually happened for some time. Marianne's movement schedule means we don't expect contact with her for another couple of weeks."
"This is all speculation," Detweiler remarked, and Bardasano and Anisimovna both nodded.
"We barely managed to get out of Monica, and take the only Frontier Security personnel directly involved in the operation with us," Anisimovna said. "We couldn't afford to wait around for any more details. If they'd captured Isabel or myself—"
She broke off, and it was Detweiler's turn to nod.
"Point taken," he acknowledged. He considered them silently for several more seconds, then seemed to reach a decision.
"Sit," he said, pointing at two of the chairs facing his desk, and Anisimovna hoped her enormous relief didn't show as she obeyed the command.
"None of us are happy about what's happened in the Cluster," Detweiler said. "I trust you're both prepared for the fact that you're going to face a lot of recrimination and accusations of incompetence?"
Anisimovna bobbed her head, and this time she didn't try to disguise her glum expression. Whatever else came of the Talbott fiasco, she'd be a long time rebuilding her prestige and repairing her damaged powerbase.
"Having said that, and assuming no new revelations suggest it really was your fault, I'm inclined to agree that the failure almost certainly stemmed from factors outside your control." He shrugged. "As I said at the beginning, it was always a crap shoot, and apparently we crapped out. So, starting from that, what's your feeling as to whether or not OFS is going to let this stand?"
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:02 am

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cthia wrote:
Also, the initial expedition to Darius wasn't an emergency like Houdini. It should have been a bit more gentle and humane. Entire families couldn't be taken, so they needed to have time to provide for offspring, or other family members you'd be leaving behind but couldn't inform that you'll never see them again. I think everyone is overlooking a lot of the little details. Brigade XO fleshed a lot of it out.

A lot of the amassed fortune would be spent. Accounts would be drained. The local bank on Mesa would suffer losing these deposits day after day. Banks don't operate in a vacuum. There are lots of logistics to consider.


Darius wasn't colonized the normal way - there wern't masses of families with a glint in their eye and a farm-all in the storage to start their new life.

No, Darius started as a small, corporate industrial site where they vat grew new humans. Humans who never knew anything else and never had any assets. There was no traveling to and From Darius expect at the upper tiers of management. Assets were grown there and (occasionally) moved there from Mesa. Darius has been self sufficient for a long time and completely cut off from the universe except for any conduits through Mesa.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:38 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
Also, the initial expedition to Darius wasn't an emergency like Houdini. It should have been a bit more gentle and humane. Entire families couldn't be taken, so they needed to have time to provide for offspring, or other family members you'd be leaving behind but couldn't inform that you'll never see them again. I think everyone is overlooking a lot of the little details. Brigade XO fleshed a lot of it out.

A lot of the amassed fortune would be spent. Accounts would be drained. The local bank on Mesa would suffer losing these deposits day after day. Banks don't operate in a vacuum. There are lots of logistics to consider.


Darius wasn't colonized the normal way - there wern't masses of families with a glint in their eye and a farm-all in the storage to start their new life.

No, Darius started as a small, corporate industrial site where they vat grew new humans. Humans who never knew anything else and never had any assets. There was no traveling to and From Darius expect at the upper tiers of management. Assets were grown there and (occasionally) moved there from Mesa. Darius has been self sufficient for a long time and completely cut off from the universe except for any conduits through Mesa.

How small? Where did they live when they first arrived? From where did the specialization come? Where did they grow their food? Etc. Where did they get their fuel for the ships and many parts? They were taking a chance to bank on too small a colony, but okay. Perhaps small risks big rewards.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:44 pm

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Think of Darius as a colony of an insular religious group (like the founders of Grayson) which was settled after a lot of searching and had to have several things beyone the normal range of requirements for planting a human colony.

You specificly would now want conditions such as a seriously Heavy world (no San Martine, or where Thandi was from). No requirement for serious terraforming.
You have to be off the beaten track, litteraly off the map in a place there is no record of anybody having gone before.

We suspect that the Alignmenet has it's own stellar explorer ships looking for wormholes and the capasity to explore any found. That would be the best -and probably the way- Darius was found and then developed.

The Alignment has lots of money and influence (even if not many know the exist) and has been planning for centuries to do this. So they would have figured out what they thought they would need to land and start a modern industrialized system on a newley discovered planet including what the basis of initial investigation and needed to look for as far as what was and wan't there and start creating lists at the same time as preliminary mapping was being done.

We know that the Alignment essentially created Manpower and Mesa as a front and the patsy for all the things the Alignment was doing that much of humanity- and certainly Beowulf- would object to. Like the genetic experimentation and modifications and so many other things. They -when we intilay start to see any real working of the Alignment in the books- have INTENDED to leave Mesa behind like a parasite exiting the body of the host it has been feeding off of for centuries and the host to die. Die probably badly since it will be the target of a lot of anger and other things as the League (as intended) disentergrates and trails will have been left to draw people and attention at Mesa as a source of problems. After the Alignment is vanished.

So, if they have been both looking for a safe, remote, secret location then they need to build what they need. They have thousand and thousands of people who are effectively citizens of a differnt planet than the public face of Mesa. They have genetics and biological labrtories on industrial scales and the information and ability to reproduce all that equipment and the vertical intergation of industries needed to build it and supply it- including with "staff", that being genetic slaves (who don't know they are slaves). They can manufacture what they need to start on (or in orbit above) Mesa or buy it almost anywhere. Did I mention they are rich? They have starships, including freighters and combination freighter/passenger ships and can move their people and materials on their own ships. They have TIME to build all the basic infrastructure, including agricultual base, to support many times the peope who are going to be there constructing the initial settlement. They can also do the same for the orbital infrastructure- buy or build what they need to start with inculding means to manufacture more in orbit and train the people they grow from the tube labs.

They have hyper-capable freighters, countergrav, prolong, start building with ceramacret from plans developed by architects and industrial planners with current softward and modern tech new scans of the areas they will be dealing with. And mostly nobody who goes to the Darius system is ever going to leave.
This is NOT loading up a colony ship and looking to build up from the limit of what and who you could bring with you. This is more like doing something the scale the Invasion of Normandy to plant a modern industrial "company city" both on the planet and in orbit and duplicate what it needs to grow. With more or less imediate access to any new tech or process or procedures that the Alignment can grab from anywhere including examples and the manuals.
So you give the non-Star lines perhaps a limited variation of Prolong and get 50 to 100 good working years out of your Labor Force people and your workforce gets better and better as it expands (litteraly pouring it out of a bottle). No political probems. No unions.

And on top of all of this you have the Star Lines and whatever next level people in full control and nobody interfering with what you are doing.

:)
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