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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:32 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Even more than that, war had already been declared upon the League by Manticore. Economic war. Kolokoltsov had informed Carmichael that closing the junctions to all Solarian registered vessels was indeed an act of war. And it was. The damned WHJ enabled an overt act of war that had lasted for centuries. The League tried to mitigate that fact and get a handle on it with the Shingaine Convention that the Manties had refused to sign. That showed their unwillingness to play fairly, as far as the League was concerned.

INCIDENTALLY, TEXTEV DOES NOT SAY WHETHER HAVEN WAS A SIGNATORY, AFAIK. WHICH WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DETAIL. IF THEY WEREN'T, THEN THE LEAGUE SHOULD HAVE LEANED ON THEM FOR SUPPORT. ESPECIALLY SINCE HAVEN KEPT BORROWING SUGAR, MILK AND TECH FROM THEM. AT LEAST TRY TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THEIR ABILITY TO CORNER THE MARKETS.

But no actual declaration of war. A trade war, or economic war, isn't an actual war.

Also the Shingaine Convention was the League basically trying to pull a fast one. Remember, the League doesn't control any Junctions and IIRC only controls at most a terminus or two.

But they put forth a treaty basically requiring everyone else to always allow them unrestricted transit through all wormholes. Which means allowing unrestricted transit through sovereign star-systems' territorial space around the wormholes.

Seriously, a government with effectively no wormholes is trying to make everyone else sign up to give that non-wormhole government full access to all the wormholes. That's kind of like the EU+China trying to force everyone to accept an international treaty allowing free transit of ocean to ocean canals; because they use them and don't control any. Lots of upside for the people advocating the treaty; no real upside for Egypt and Panama to agree to it though.

Pretty sure that nobody with control of a wormhole signed that treaty unless under serious coercion from the League. Why would they, they give up control to major shippers (like the League) but don't get anything back from the League because the League owns no wormholes to allow them free transit through in return.



As for Haven, depending on the timing and the exact text of the treaty they might or might not have signed. I definitely can't see them signing it if they'd already found the wormhole to Bolthole. And they probably wouldn't want to sign on after they started considering possibly eventually seizing control of the Manticoran Junction.
But if the treaty predated all that, then maybe they'd sign on since it doesn't require them to give anything up (unless they ever do end up owning a wormhole).
OTOH does the text of the treaty require signatories to all everybody unrestricted transit; or only other signatories. If the treaty required everyone free transit then there's no upside to Haven to balance against the (possibly only hypothetical) costs.


As I stated just upstream, economic wars are enough to make a navy come calling as the Japanese did during Pearl Harbor. It is irresponsible to ignore the fact that your trade policies are an act of war. Especially when that sentiment emanates from the minds of fat, happy, well-fed Americans who fail at trying to feign ignorance of the economic upheaval caused by said policies. (As a matter of fact, Haven could have done much better to feed its own starving people if Manticore hadn't been so greedy.) Again, even if the Manties' own state of war against the League at that time doesn't make it all a moot point.

The Shingaine Convention was trying to alleviate Manticore's complete stranglehold on trade. You can't compare manmade junctions to phenomena created by God. Which obviously is the Solarian's stance. It is somewhat reflected in the bylaws germane to junctions. Namely, that they're only yours if you've got britches big enough to enforce it. The League was simply saying that the galaxy shouldn't have to force someone to play fair with toys provided by creation. Certainly when it regards something as essential and innate as travel.

BTW, shouldn't Beowulf herself be a signatory of the Shingaine Convention, at least by proxy?

At any rate, where was Beowulf's concern and moral compass for her own founding when she failed to inform the League that a jumped up Salamander off her meds was on her way to exercise her anger :?: :?: :?:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:55 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But no actual declaration of war. A trade war, or economic war, isn't an actual war.

Also the Shingaine Convention was the League basically trying to pull a fast one. Remember, the League doesn't control any Junctions and IIRC only controls at most a terminus or two.

But they put forth a treaty basically requiring everyone else to always allow them unrestricted transit through all wormholes. Which means allowing unrestricted transit through sovereign star-systems' territorial space around the wormholes.

Seriously, a government with effectively no wormholes is trying to make everyone else sign up to give that non-wormhole government full access to all the wormholes. That's kind of like the EU+China trying to force everyone to accept an international treaty allowing free transit of ocean to ocean canals; because they use them and don't control any. Lots of upside for the people advocating the treaty; no real upside for Egypt and Panama to agree to it though.

Pretty sure that nobody with control of a wormhole signed that treaty unless under serious coercion from the League. Why would they, they give up control to major shippers (like the League) but don't get anything back from the League because the League owns no wormholes to allow them free transit through in return.



As for Haven, depending on the timing and the exact text of the treaty they might or might not have signed. I definitely can't see them signing it if they'd already found the wormhole to Bolthole. And they probably wouldn't want to sign on after they started considering possibly eventually seizing control of the Manticoran Junction.
But if the treaty predated all that, then maybe they'd sign on since it doesn't require them to give anything up (unless they ever do end up owning a wormhole).
OTOH does the text of the treaty require signatories to all everybody unrestricted transit; or only other signatories. If the treaty required everyone free transit then there's no upside to Haven to balance against the (possibly only hypothetical) costs.


As I stated just upstream, economic wars are enough to make a navy come calling as the Japanese did during Pearl Harbor. It is irresponsible to ignore the fact that your trade policies are an act of war. Especially when that sentiment emanates from the minds of fat, happy, well-fed Americans who fail at trying to feign ignorance of the economic upheaval caused by said policies. (As a matter of fact, Haven could have done much better to feed its own starving people if Manticore hadn't been so greedy.) Again, even if the Manties' own state of war against the League at that time doesn't make it all a moot point.

Economic or trade wars can be enough to cause a real war. But until the League government passes a formal declaration of war their legal rights relative to their member states don't change. Even if they initiate combat without declaration of war (as Japan did at Pearl Harbor) it doesn't trigger the additional war powers that the League constitution only grants the League government after the member systems formally vote to provide it to them.

Almost exactly like in Short Victorious War despite being the victim of surprise attack, and combat operations being ongoing, Manticore's government didn't have it's war powers until the House of Lords voted a formal declaration of war.

And to override Beowulf's government and SDF, within Beowulf territorial space, Tsang needed the war powers only granted to the SLN after the League assembly votes a formal declaration of war. It's possible that Laccoon might have eventually led to that; but it hadn't yet and an implied state of war doesn't change the legalities or override the explicit rights Beowulf has under the League constitution. Rights that Beowulf and the other founding systems explicitly wrote into it to prevent the new League government from running roughshod over them unless they granted it that authority by passing a vote to formally declare war.

And no, someone declaring war against the League isn't enough. Congress still had to formally vote to declare war against Japan after Pearl Harbor; until it did FDR's ability to respond was limited. The League founders set it up so the League systems, though the Assembly, had to be the ones granting the extraordinary war powers to the League government's executive. If a declaration of war against the League was all you needed then the Mandarins could get themselves that power by secretly setting up some tin pot system to declare war on the League; and then (like High Ridge) refuse to end the war and thus keep their emergency powers. No, the League assembly had to agree that the situation was serious enough to grant the League executives war powers. And at the time of Raging Justice they hadn't. So Beowulf's right had not changed.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:28 am

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tlb wrote:You are perfectly free to consider such things as the actual legal obligations of member states to the League as against human nature, but RFC just needs to point to history to show such things as the "liberum veto" did exist. So if you want to say this is "handwavium", go ahead; others of us are happy to accept what he wrote.

cthia wrote:What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand your entire post, which seems to be wading somewhere out in left field. You consistently try to defend a woman's right to burn her bra in unrelated circumstances, against a guy who would beat you to the punch any day in a woman's defense. Analogies truly aren't your strong point.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about the implied obligations of an ally. Some things shouldn't have to be written on paper. I'm sure Grayson argued the same point during High Ridge's tenure when they singlehandedly had to fund the war.

The League browbeat systems for centuries. Where was Beowulf? I can tell you where she wasn't. She wasn't sleeping around fornicating on a treasonous bed. Also, for all ears that can hear. Treason is a much more serious crime than playing around in the gray area of the Constitution.

It's certainly okay to disagree with that sentiment. But disagree at the ballot box in November as well.

Yes, gray. At the time of Operation Raging Justice, Lacoon was in full force. Economic wars are enough to make navies pay you a visit. Consider Pearl Harbor if you don't believe me. Even if you continue to ignore the fact that the Manties declaring war on the League at that time makes any lack of approval from the League's Assembly to defend itself a moot point.

I am not making an analogy in the quote above, just pointing out a fact within the Honorverse. Turn about is fair play, you do not like my analogies and I do not like yours. Your marriage analogy is particularly bad, in that the organization of the League is nothing similar. A better analogy (which you are free to disparage) is to the United Nations today or the League of Nations before WW2 (I wonder if RFC was inspired by that League), if it were supported by a surcharge on freight moving between members rather than dues. The average citizen of a nation is more concerned with what their government is doing than whatever UN peacekeeping forces might do. If a nation cannot abide what the League of Nations is doing, then they are free to leave; there is no "unwritten obligation" preventing them from doing so.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:11 am

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tlb wrote:I am not making an analogy in the quote above, just pointing out a fact within the Honorverse. Turn about is fair play, you do not like my analogies and I do not like yours. Your marriage analogy is particularly bad, in that the organization of the League is nothing similar. A better analogy (which you are free to disparage) is to the United Nations today or the League of Nations before WW2 (I wonder if RFC was inspired by that League), if it were supported by a surcharge on freight moving between members rather than dues. The average citizen of a nation is more concerned with what their government is doing than whatever UN peacekeeping forces might do. If a nation cannot abide what the League of Nations is doing, then they are free to leave; there is no "unwritten obligation" preventing them from doing so.


I'd also like to add that arguing moral rights Beowulf had towards the League also requires arguing moral rights the League had. And Beowulf had a very good case that the government in Old Chicago wasn't abiding by its side of the agreement (they did make the argument in the Assembly and later with the independence).

We'd never heard of discussions in the Assembly before UH, so we don't know what Beowulf did argue. We were told it was one of the few members who bothered to send an intelligent delegation that could make arguments and not just rubber-stamp whatever the bureaucrats wanted. That didn't sound like it was a recent change.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:32 am

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"The damned WHJ enabled an overt act of war that had lasted for centuries. The League tried to mitigate that fact and get a handle on it with the Shingaine Convention that the Manties had refused to sign. That showed their unwillingness to play fairly, as far as the League was concerned."

The League was annoyed that SKM owned an asset in it's own back yard (and held it by possession as is apparently all that is required) and the League was annoyed that Beowulf entered into a treaty -as a soverign system is apparently allowed to do under the SL Constitution- with Manticore for a version of joint ownership of the Sigma Draconis terminus.

What else is the League annoyed with? Beowulf having it's own SDF? Well, apparently a number of League members have SDF's. That League members own various wormhole bridges and are not obligaged to allow transit of SLN ships except in times of war......what war in the last couple of centuries?

Manticore specificaly kept it's naval ships OUT of Beowulf System space, heck, they were nowhere close to it although they were close to the -by treaty- shared terminus. No text nor detail of that treaty has been available to us and I have no idea if any treaties or trade agreements made by League Members are required to be disclosed to the League or must be ratified or approved by the League.

As far as we can tell, the Battle Fleet part of the SLN really mostly swans around inside the league or makes the occasional intimidation call on non-league members when it is not stepping on (that 800lb gorilla mode) Members who are getting boisterous with others. Not really even -known- commerce protection. Then there is Frontier Fleet as the enforcer arm of OFS and does go around beating on systems out in the Verge and frontier so OFS can impose all sorts of taxes and fees on places "for thier protection" and making a lot of credits for various Fleet members and OFS etc. We also -since Bing and then Crandall- now have the STOCK PLANS AND PROCEEDURES for FF and OFF to move in and create incedents to them ride in and "help" and "protect" systems for centuries and expand the revenue extortion machine of the SL.

Does Beowulf tell the League about it's anti-slavery operations and undercover ONI and Special Operations? No. Does ANYBODY in the League forward technical advancements (miltary or otherwise) to the League or do they both patent said advancements and sell the "stuff" or license the information use to the League and any other paying customer?

Does the League Constitution (or SL buracracy Regulations) Require such information to be passed?

The SLN, we are told, couldn't be bothered to send observers to the Haven-Manticore war and flat out did not believe whatever they were told by systems (and if observers were sent by systems they probably included SL Members as well as Independent Systems). The whole "not invented here" syndrome bandied about in the series. Sure, the ALIGNMENT PLANTS/Agents did a dam good job of diverting or downplaying or even hiding anything that did come in and getting people who did belive it marginalized. But that still indicates that nobody the SL or SLN had any respect for thought they should know about the odd and different things that were going on in the fighting in the Haven Quadrant.

Perhaps the League is miffed that Manticore is the leading source of jurisprudence and apparently of an originator of much of the Space Law /Space Maritime Law in the known Human Space? That they had a reason to develope such expertise based on a large and growing merchant fleet plus the wormhole is one explination. Another is that having thousands of settled systems and many Multi-System Polities (including the giant SL) there are a LOT of laws and regulations to keep up with and at some point it becomes a survival mechanism to attempt to both simplify and codify all that regulation. If Manticore took the approch of making "reasonable to both parties" treaties reguarding trade with 1st it's neighbors and then with places it's merchants frequent, why is unreasonable that those same trading partners would want similar arrangements with their other partners. Good laws simpify things, particularly when most places where trade goes on used the same laws as the basis. You know, like quarantine, what counts for tariffs (import/export) on intersteller ships which enter your space but only discharge some cargo and or pick up some cargo. Consistency. Or what we would call Bonded Warehousing at the Economic Zones represented by the warehouses and stations serving the various wormhole termini or transfer platforms in orbits around inhabited planets allowing for transshipments of goods which are clasified as "not having landed" for the system.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:43 pm

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cthia wrote:The Shingaine Convention was trying to alleviate Manticore's complete stranglehold on trade. You can't compare manmade junctions to phenomena created by God. Which obviously is the Solarian's stance. It is somewhat reflected in the bylaws germane to junctions. Namely, that they're only yours if you've got britches big enough to enforce it. The League was simply saying that the galaxy shouldn't have to force someone to play fair with toys provided by creation. Certainly when it regards something as essential and innate as travel.

You could compare it to the treaties that control transit through the Dardanelles - that passage is a "phenomena created by God". Straight of Gibraltar is the other choke point; but it's wide enough there seems to be a channel that's outside of territorial waters; so no special treaty or rule required for free passage during peacetime.

Of course the Dardanelles treaties aren't a good comparison to the Shingaine Convention because they're the result of a long series of treaties, wars (some fought specifically over the issues) and peace treaties over the issue of which nations can use the straights, and whether their owners are allowed to fortify them. (I started trying to summarize them and I'd hit about 6 treaties and several wars between 1830 and 1930). But until the most recent the info I can find on the treaties didn't address whether commercial traffic was allowed; only which nation's warships did or did not have the right to pass through them.

Still, while not a man-made canal, the treaty situation around the Dardanelles and Bosphorus just don't at all match the situation around the Shingaine Convention. They were focused on military, not commercial usage. And the nations involved in preparing the treaties were either seeking advantage in exchange for providing protection to the Ottomans/Turkey, or seeking changes as a condition of ending a conflict with the Ottomans/Turkey. There's just nothing like a neutral 3rd party without any straights trying to convince lots of other nations without straight to all sign onto a treaty regulating free commercial passage through straights in national waters in the attempt to pressure those few nations that do have such natural passages into agreeing as well, giving up their rights to regulate and control shipping in their own territory in exchange for (basically) nothing.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:21 am

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tlb wrote:I am not making an analogy in the quote above, just pointing out a fact within the Honorverse. Turn about is fair play, you do not like my analogies and I do not like yours. Your marriage analogy is particularly bad, in that the organization of the League is nothing similar. A better analogy (which you are free to disparage) is to the United Nations today or the League of Nations before WW2 (I wonder if RFC was inspired by that League), if it were supported by a surcharge on freight moving between members rather than dues. The average citizen of a nation is more concerned with what their government is doing than whatever UN peacekeeping forces might do. If a nation cannot abide what the League of Nations is doing, then they are free to leave; there is no "unwritten obligation" preventing them from doing so.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd also like to add that arguing moral rights Beowulf had towards the League also requires arguing moral rights the League had. And Beowulf had a very good case that the government in Old Chicago wasn't abiding by its side of the agreement (they did make the argument in the Assembly and later with the independence).

We'd never heard of discussions in the Assembly before UH, so we don't know what Beowulf did argue. We were told it was one of the few members who bothered to send an intelligent delegation that could make arguments and not just rubber-stamp whatever the bureaucrats wanted. That didn't sound like it was a recent change.

That brings up an important point that makes the UN an even better analogy. The founders of the Solarian League did not want the League to interfere in any member planet's prerogatives, except in specially authorized circumstances; so they used the idea of the "liberum veto". From Wikipedia about the United Nations Security Council:
The Security Council consists of fifteen members, of which five are permanent: China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America. These were the great powers, or their successor states, that were the victors of World War II. Permanent members can veto any substantive resolution, including those on the admission of new member states or nominees for the office of Secretary-General. The remaining ten members are elected on a regional basis to serve a term of two years. The body's presidency rotates monthly among its members.


The founders of the SL gave this veto to every member, meaning that every significant measure had to be voted unanimously to pass. That implications of that move is that nothing controversial could ever pass and as the League began to flounder in corruption the Mandarins could use bought friendly votes to prevent their actions from being censured. At that point there was no way that the League could be reformed internally. The only moral action left to a member was to leave.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:18 pm

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Do forgive the length, but my homework is backlogged. Also forgive any errors which undoubtedly are many.

cthia wrote:I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obvious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."
Jonathan_S wrote:Well as you say, the text-ev isn't clear on whether FTL relays were spread around the rest of the system. Or even about when Tsang though the Beowulf SDF had been given access to any. (For all she knows Manticore only let Beowulf in on knowledge of them when they loaned the SDF a pair after Tsang appeared at Beowulf.

A Rising Thunder wrote:
Tsang had her expression back under control, and her mind raced. Holmon-Sanders hadn’t just idly decided to speak to her in real-time. She’d done it to make a point; that much Tsang was certain of. But what point? So far as Tsang knew, the only people who were even rumored to possess FTL communications ability were the Manties and—possibly—the Havenites. Which meant the only place Holmon-Sanders could have gotten her FTL relay was from Manticore. But why had she gotten it? And why was she telling Tsang she had it?

And that was the only text-ev that seemed to even touch on thinking about the FTL com relay.

That was enough. Need there be more? It was certainly what I was recalling. Let's analyze this a bit. First off, note the part about Tsang's mind "racing." She's not a complete imbecile. Plus, SL officers know absolutely diddly about Manty FTL. Of course she would consider the capability has to come from a "series" of platforms. Very large platforms since they also still don't know the secret which lies at the heart of Manty miniaturization. On the heels of the fact that she's already thinking Holman-Sanders acquired the platforms from the Manties. It took all of a microsecond of her mind racing to either peg Beowulf as traitors, or of being coerced and held hostage.

Jonathan_S wrote:And given that Truman revealed a couple minutes later that she'd been on the com link listening in the whole time, there's no reason for Tsang to have seriously suspected that Beowulf was doing anything more that being allowed to use a Manticoran controlled relay; just like Tsang was being allowed to do for her responses.

I hate to be facetious here, but at that expense, what does that sound like? It sounds like the bad Manties have a pulser at Beowulf's head telling her to "speak into this here mike, honey, and say exactly what we told you to say, or else."

Jonathan wrote:There's no evidence exposed to Tsang that Beowulf had certain knowledge of the FTL communication ability for any significant length of time before it was used to contact her (and again, that contact appeared to be under RMN control)

I don't think Tsang doubted it remained under RMN control. But why wouldn't Tsang not expect the platforms to be huge behemoths as they would have to be had they been Solarian developed without the secret of the fission plant. Deploying such a state secret outside immediate war gives Beowulf a possibility to observe these things. It was clear the Manties weren't worried about that. And since Tsang would undoubtedly expect these things to be huge, and limited—requiring a series of them to increase bandwidth—then undoubtedly they'd be needed to be emplaced in the system at specific distances like a communications net working in tandem. And that would require some time. It is already established that the Manties had been there for a week or so, most likely distributing their extremely large phone booths.

What, Beowulf has no hyper capable vessels that can use its junction to warn its own founding? The RMN would seed some other system than its own with so many of these huge behemoths for over a week with their SDF swanning around to get a good look at them while they're being deployed?

Jonathan_S wrote:So there is nothing in the text showing that it was obvious to Tsang that the Beowulf system contained additional FTL com relays. And even if there were more relays there's zero evidence that Beowulf had control over them or long term knowledge of them. They all could have been deployed by Truman's fleet when it slipped into the system after Tsang's arrival.

Not a chance Tsang is going to swallow any of that garbage. See above.

Jonathan_S wrote:The only "betrayal" she seems to see is Beowulf refusing to stand aside and allow her to carry out her illegal and unconstitutional actions. There's no hint that she sees Holmon-Sanders's use of a Manticoran FTL relay as any kind of betrayal. Surprising; yes; but she's reacting to what's said - not really how its transmitted.

Holman-Sanders should have been livid as well at the RMN's highhandedness. The fact that she WOULDN'T stand aside provides the proof within the pudding that she was in on it. It isn't like the treasonous fornicating harlot went out of her way to conceal the ring on her finger. Beowulf was rubbing her new beau and his toys in the gorilla's face.

cthia wrote:I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obvious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."
ThinksMarkedly wrote:My argument was two-fold:

1) the buoys transmitting the comms between Truman and Tsang need not have been deployed more than a few minutes before the conversation. Tsang couldn't have known of any long-range buoys between the terminus and the planets.

I'm not even sure I believe that, and I know at least a smidgeon more about the things than the Sols. They need a bit more deployment time to get in place than THAT don't they? And remember the Sols are completely oblivious to the tech. Along with the fact that space is large and there would be no way of knowing the exact position of any SL force when they entered the system and initiated contact. So the platforms had to be substantial to cover all possibilities. Again, the SLN would be thinking in terms of their own development of the platforms, minus the secret of the powerplant. The RMN usually deploy a redundant number of them so they can bounce the signal between them, preventing them from being localized. They may not have done that here, but still.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: 2) if such a network did exist between the terminus and the inner system, it may not be a violation of any League rules and Beowulf was in no requirement to divulge its existence to the League. Secrecy may have been a condition for the installation of such a network by its operator.

An author conceived, author backed and author approved abortion as well. Whether an abusive husband may agree is another ball of wax. Beowulf has been accepting the act of browbeating neobarbs for centuries without their colors turning coat. Now, in the middle of war operations?

TM wrote:I completely understand that #2 may be adhering to the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it.

Whew! :wipesbrow: Saves me time and effort there!

cthia redacted wrote:Well, we know for certain, NOW, that it was legally okay for Beowulf to utilize advanced foreign tech and not confer with the League on it. The author confirmed that fact. But the author cannot control how the arrogant - browbeat them into submission for centuries - gorilla would ultimately perceive that fact. Especially when it is confronted with that fact in the midst of the largest most significant most important war operation of its life.
[...]

I'll concede there was no TECHNICAL breach of contract. Again, confirmed by the author. But the entire "Karma" thread centers around Beowulf's IMPLIED obligations to the League. No, make that, to the arrogant gorilla. In the face of Operation Raging Justice and — I'm not going to specifically argue the niggling little details of a formal or de facto war, again — in the eyes of the Mandarins who controlled the gorilla, it was war. In the eyes of the 800# gorilla dispatched to wreak havoc. It was war. When a large part of the gorilla's body arrived in-system, Tsang, it was war.
TM wrote:I am not at all disputing that the reaction by the SL, the SLN, or any particular officer may have been extreme, regardless of whether there was a de jure breach of rules and regulations or not, and regardless of whether the reaction was legal or not.
cthia wrote:Being confronted with the reality that Beowulf had been sitting on a wealth of information about the enemy's capabilities was plain outright bullshit. Tsang's lividity was not misplaced OR out of order. And, lets face it, the FTL capability the Manties possessed is a wealth of information, even without the fact that it raises accurate suspicions that Beowulf almost undoubtedly were privy to much much more. Suddenly, the SL's warships who were never able to deliver concrete proof of Manty superweapons became a moot point. Since that knowledge had rested with their own fornicating founder the entire time.
TM wrote:Didn't Manticore disclose it had FTL when it reported what happened to Crandall? Or even to Byng? The SLN and Mandarins chose not to believe it. They also chose not to believe the number of missiles being used during the second war with Haven. There are multiple instances where we hear SLN officers call those claims "preposterous" and dismiss them out of hand. Byng himself did that.

By Jove, I think something to that effect DID come from the mouths of "babes and neobarbs." Neither of which was on the Solarian guest list of government approved speakers. It should have come from Beowulf, who are NOT neobarbs and "WERE" a well trusted ally of the gorilla. As explained in the Karma thread.

TM wrote:So was Beowulf in the obligation to press the point and make the League believe it? Legally, clearly no. Morally? Maybe.

Legally, Beowulf KNEW that in the eyes of the gorilla that that is an INDISPUTABLE resounding YES. The same "implied" Y-E-S comprising the status quo for centuries. She didn't have a problem with it back then, while she enjoyed protection from the beatings meted out to the OTHER girls in the stables for centuries. Morally, we agree. No problem there, surely if Beowulf wanted to save lives as she claims.

cthia wrote:An abortion that I had no choice but to concede to the author, and now to you. But even the author has a limited control of human nature, lest he wants to send me a lifetime supply of handwavium to assist in my suspension of disbelief. There's no way in hell Tsang wasn't reeling in disbelief. Enough disbelief that she could have temporarily went off her rocker at the nerve of Beowulf. The same disease that befell Honor. TemPoFuckingRary insanity-induced mayhem.
TM wrote:Not disputing how Tsang or the Mandarins might have reacted. In the case of the Mandarins, how they did react.

You're completely right that they could have lashed out far more than they actually did. If this is what you want to discuss, sure. I was discussing the legal obligations, strictly to the letter of the law. That gives Beowulf some justification and therefore the ability to point to the League at large that the Mandarins are overstepping their bounds.
cthia wrote:Where did you get THAT abortion? A wife's duties are still in play until AFTER the divorce is finalized. Sad, but true. In the middle of the war is the last place she better get uppity. Again sad, but true. I don't control the human nature of an arrogant abusive gorilla, so don't shoot the messenger.
TM wrote:I'm not sure what those duties are that spouses are required to one another. Speaking of acquired assets, you're probably right: until it's finalised, anything one or the other acquires may be part of the settlement.

What is required is her complete submission in the biblical sense. The biblical sense also requires the complete obedience to her husband, certainly as it would be digested by an arrogant and abusive kind of gorilla. If they are living in separate rooms, it requires the door between them to remain open, lest HE KICK IT DOWN. Until it's finalized, there IS NO SETTLEMENT. For many abusive husbands, there is no settlement even after the law has so ordered. As far as HE is concerned, and she's going to find that out the hard way soon enough. Anything about this doesn't gel with our own abusive gorilla's behavior?

TM wrote:But to take another aside, when there's a breach of contract between two companies, one of them can put the money it owes the other in escrow, pending a decision by the judicial system, which may depend on whose fault it was.

That may very well work with companies, but not with abusive husbands and their wives. She can put certain holdings into escrow if she wants to, but she better put her ass in there along with it, and hide. Because as soon as the raging abusive lunatic finds out, he's going to beat the living escrow out of her!

Messenger! Messenger! I plead The Messenger! Which doesn't make having to deliver these truths any better... especially recalling what happened to the messenger in the movie "300."

tlb wrote:The point of the Nuremberg Trials was that it is not permitted to stop behaving in a legal way, just because there is a war. If you believe that a war is being started illegally, then you will be complicit if you do not continue to argue the finer points of the Constitution. What Tsang wanted might have been legal (although still extremely foolish), if there had been a Declaration of War voted out by the League Assembly; but prior to that Beowulf was free to act as it did.

So be it Beowulf. Continue to argue the finer points of the Constitution, if you must. But do it while you're opening that damn gate. Get it on record for any possible courts then do as you're told, because any trials are a moot point at this time when the gorilla is the judge and jury. Now, or in the future. Beowulf's duty is to the population of her own people. Putting their heads on a bullseye for Solarian revenge was senseless.

tlb wrote:I quite understand the argument that the Mandarins and the League Navy would not agree with that position and might try to punish Beowulf for it. That is I what I understand you to say in your "karma" presentation. Indeed they finally did attack Beowulf in UH and lost two thirds of their force in the attempt (if I remember correctly). But of course there was no celebration, because the Mesan Alignment made a nearly simultaneous attack that killed about 40 million people.

Let's see, the Sols failed in delivering what they owed to Beowulf, but Karma was not denied.

cthia wrote:The Shingaine Convention was trying to alleviate Manticore's complete stranglehold on trade. You can't compare manmade junctions to phenomena created by God. Which obviously is the Solarian's stance. It is somewhat reflected in the bylaws germane to junctions. Namely, that they're only yours if you've got britches big enough to enforce it. The League was simply saying that the galaxy shouldn't have to force someone to play fair with toys provided by creation. Certainly when it regards something as essential and innate as travel.
Jonathan_S wrote:You could compare it to the treaties that control transit through the Dardanelles - that passage is a "phenomena created by God". Straight of Gibraltar is the other choke point; but it's wide enough there seems to be a channel that's outside of territorial waters; so no special treaty or rule required for free passage during peacetime.

Of course the Dardanelles treaties aren't a good comparison to the Shingaine Convention because they're the result of a long series of treaties, wars (some fought specifically over the issues) and peace treaties over the issue of which nations can use the straights, and whether their owners are allowed to fortify them. (I started trying to summarize them and I'd hit about 6 treaties and several wars between 1830 and 1930). But until the most recent the info I can find on the treaties didn't address whether commercial traffic was allowed; only which nation's warships did or did not have the right to pass through them.

Wars! Wars! And rumors of wars. Over God's toys. Man cannot claim, without recompense, what God hath giveth to all.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, while not a man-made canal, the treaty situation around the Dardanelles and Bosphorus just don't at all match the situation around the Shingaine Convention. They were focused on military, not commercial usage. And the nations involved in preparing the treaties were either seeking advantage in exchange for providing protection to the Ottomans/Turkey, or seeking changes as a condition of ending a conflict with the Ottomans/Turkey. There's just nothing like a neutral 3rd party without any straights trying to convince lots of other nations without straight to all sign onto a treaty regulating free commercial passage through straights in national waters in the attempt to pressure those few nations that do have such natural passages into agreeing as well, giving up their rights to regulate and control shipping in their own territory in exchange for (basically) nothing.

In the case of the MWJ, exchange for nothing? I beg your pardon. The League wasn't trying to divert the huge fees from the MBS, they would keep the fees PLUS their heads.

tlb wrote:I am not making an analogy in the quote above, just pointing out a fact within the Honorverse. Turn about is fair play, you do not like my analogies and I do not like yours. Your marriage analogy is particularly bad, in that the organization of the League is nothing similar.

Poor little naive tlb. What on earth am I going to do with you. The analogy of marriage is absolutely NOTHING like the REAL organization of the League that exists ON that RICE PAPER of a Constitution. But it is EXACTLY the organization that has existed in the gorilla's HEAD, for centuries, in his [C c]onstitution. And that (c)onstitution has prevailed for centuries, and would protect Beowulf come a court of law if she'd allowed passage, because she can show she feared for her life. And she should have.

tlb wrote: A better analogy (which you are free to disparage) is to the United Nations today or the League of Nations before WW2 (I wonder if RFC was inspired by that League), if it were supported by a surcharge on freight moving between members rather than dues. The average citizen of a nation is more concerned with what their government is doing than whatever UN peacekeeping forces might do. If a nation cannot abide what the League of Nations is doing, then they are free to leave; there is no "unwritten obligation" preventing them from doing so.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd also like to add that arguing moral rights Beowulf had towards the League also requires arguing moral rights the League had. And Beowulf had a very good case that the government in Old Chicago wasn't abiding by its side of the agreement (they did make the argument in the Assembly and later with the independence).

We'd never heard of discussions in the Assembly before UH, so we don't know what Beowulf did argue. We were told it was one of the few members who bothered to send an intelligent delegation that could make arguments and not just rubber-stamp whatever the bureaucrats wanted. That didn't sound like it was a recent change.

Sure, we can argue the moral rights the League had, but the League isn't on trial. Everyone knew their transgressions. What's new? Besides, Beowulf didn't have enough muscle to deliver her gripes like her masters did. "Do as I say, not as I do," yelled the gorilla as he beat his chest for centuries.

When she did finally get a little muscle in the form of a new lover on steroids, she got too cocky. She succumbed to the human nature of wanting revenge and serving it cold. Planning traps. Releasing the DB. Denying a belligerent gorilla passage and mocking him to boot. "Look at the tech I have in the system." Then calling her lover out of the closet. "Na na na nana naaa."

tlb wrote:That brings up an important point that makes the UN an even better analogy. The founders of the Solarian League did not want the League to interfere in any member planet's prerogatives, except in specially authorized circumstances; so they used the idea of the "liberum veto". From Wikipedia about the United Nations Security Council:
The Security Council consists of fifteen members, of which five are permanent: China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America. These were the great powers, or their successor states, that were the victors of World War II. Permanent members can veto any substantive resolution, including those on the admission of new member states or nominees for the office of Secretary-General. The remaining ten members are elected on a regional basis to serve a term of two years. The body's presidency rotates monthly among its members.

The founders of the SL gave this veto to every member, meaning that every significant measure had to be voted unanimously to pass. That implications of that move is that nothing controversial could every pass and as the League began to flounder in corruption the Mandarins could use bought friendly votes to prevent their actions from being censured. At that point there was no way that the League could be reformed internally. The only moral action left to a member was to leave.

The problem with your analogy is it bears no resemblance to actual truth, not even on paper.

1. The intimacy between the parties like with Beowulf and the League has never existed.

2. In that analogy, all of the members have a substantial navy, and coffers, to back them up. There is not a single member who could oppose the SLN, or defend itself against it militarily. Not one! Their membership was simply a placeholder.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:33 pm

tlb
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Posts: 1984
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

tlb wrote:That brings up an important point that makes the UN an even better analogy. The founders of the Solarian League did not want the League to interfere in any member planet's prerogatives, except in specially authorized circumstances; so they used the idea of the "liberum veto". From Wikipedia about the United Nations Security Council:
The Security Council consists of fifteen members, of which five are permanent: China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America. These were the great powers, or their successor states, that were the victors of World War II. Permanent members can veto any substantive resolution, including those on the admission of new member states or nominees for the office of Secretary-General. The remaining ten members are elected on a regional basis to serve a term of two years. The body's presidency rotates monthly among its members.

The founders of the SL gave this veto to every member, meaning that every significant measure had to be voted unanimously to pass. That implications of that move is that nothing controversial could every pass and as the League began to flounder in corruption the Mandarins could use bought friendly votes to prevent their actions from being censured. At that point there was no way that the League could be reformed internally. The only moral action left to a member was to leave.

cthia wrote:The problem with your analogy is it bears no resemblance to actual truth, not even on paper.

1. The intimacy between the parties like with Beowulf and the League has never existed.

2. In that analogy, all of the members have a substantial navy, and coffers, to back them up. There is not a single member who could oppose the SLN, or defend itself against it militarily. Not one! Their membership was simply a placeholder.

It is better than any analogy that I have seen from you; but that is to be expected, since neither of us likes the other's analogies.

1) What "intimacy" are you talking about? Is this another reference to your marriage metaphor (which I reject, outside of the possible feelings of the Mandarins and the leadership of the Navy)?

2) What navy does Hungary (or many other members) have? After centuries of collecting fees (if that were the funding source, instead of dues), the UN could have a bigger navy than anyone.

The point of the analogy (which you sidestep) is the requirement for unanimous consent to any measure; which means that Beowulf had no chance to correct the league's faults by any action within the assembly.

You continue to point to that state of war as precluding actions by Beowulf; despite it being clear that absent a declaration of war by the Solarian Assembly, Beowulf was free to act as it chose. You contend that war still exists, so the legal status is somehow gray. However Field of Dishonor refutes that view, making clear that a declaration is still required to be passed before the navy is free to act as it wishes.

It seems to me that your various arguments about Beowulf's actions within the Solarian League hinge on the perceptions of the Mandarins and the Naval leadership. If that is correct, so what? Beowulf needs to do what it believes is right and events make it clear that the Mandarins are going to behave in a way that Beowulf can not accept, so the only course is to quit the League.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:56 pm

Jonathan_S
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Location: Virginia, USA

I'm going to reply to bits rather than trying to do an even larger unified response.
cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:And given that Truman revealed a couple minutes later that she'd been on the com link listening in the whole time, there's no reason for Tsang to have seriously suspected that Beowulf was doing anything more that being allowed to use a Manticoran controlled relay; just like Tsang was being allowed to do for her responses.

I hate to be facetious here, but at that expense, what does that sound like? It sounds like the bad Manties have a pulser at Beowulf's head telling her to "speak into this here mike, honey, and say exactly what we told you to say, or else."
I'm not getting the Grand Canyon sized leap from "allowed use use an friendly navy's superior communication devices" to "forced at gunpoint to recite a script".
Yes Truman was on the call, and yes she was hiding that from Tsang. But to my mind that was part of a prearranged plan with the BSDF to maximize the chances of them succeeding in their desire to make Tsang back down without any loss of life.

Jonathan wrote:There's no evidence exposed to Tsang that Beowulf had certain knowledge of the FTL communication ability for any significant length of time before it was used to contact her (and again, that contact appeared to be under RMN control)

I don't think Tsang doubted it remained under RMN control. But why wouldn't Tsang not expect the platforms to be huge behemoths as they would have to be had they been Solarian developed without the secret of the fission plant. Deploying such a state secret outside immediate war gives Beowulf a possibility to observe these things. It was clear the Manties weren't worried about that. And since Tsang would undoubtedly expect these things to be huge, and limited—requiring a series of them to increase bandwidth—then undoubtedly they'd be needed to be emplaced in the system at specific distances like a communications net working in tandem. And that would require some time. It is already established that the Manties had been there for a week or so, most likely distributing their extremely large phone booths.

What, Beowulf has no hyper capable vessels that can use its junction to warn its own founding? The RMN would seed some other system than its own with so many of these huge behemoths for over a week with their SDF swanning around to get a good look at them while they're being deployed?[/quote]
First, the near Hermes Buoy is near enough to Tsang, at 10k km - 1/3rd of laser head range, that no stealth in the world could have hidden its size if it had been as large as you're suggesting Tsang thinks it must be. And Truman even expects, and says as much, that Tsang's people would have detected the relay once it started emitting and they knew to focus on it.
Tsang would be disabused of the idea that it's a gigantic permanent construct quite quickly.

So she has little reason to erroneously assume that the entire outer system, or at least vast swaths of space around the junction are seeded with these. And therefore no reason to erroneously assume that they'd been emplaced for weeks or longer.

Also, her tactical section totally missed one hanging 10k km from her fleet. She's got plenty of evidence from that that even if Manticore had pre-deployed them that Beowulf might have been unaware until Manticore decided to share the information with them.

And like I'd said, that could have happened not long at all before the communication over it was opened with Tsang.



Also, how exactly could Beowulf use the Junction to send any message to the League? The junction only goes to Manticore. (Okay you could eventually get back to Sol through it, but not without a lot longer hyper trip than going directly). The Beowulf terminus is, but hundreds of light years, the closest wormhole termini to Sol. So if you're going to take a message from Beowulf to Sol it goes through hyper. (And it take even a fast courier ship a bit over a week. And of course just as long for any message to get back from Sol to Tsang)
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