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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:12 am

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cthia wrote:IINM, there were Hermes Buoys littering the system, and they were introduced to Tsang. There were way too many to have been put there "recently." Even if they were, recent additions, Tsang had to have been blown away by the revelation that FTL capability wasn't just a pipe dream, and that their own founding member was not only comfortable with them being emplaced in the system, but was actually intimate with them long enough to have gotten over the capability.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:The text isn't explicit whether Truman was talking to Tsang via FTL comms. The conversations across 30 seconds of light-lag are reported as normal conversations (even the ones taking 45 minutes, as if anyone would keep staring at a screen that long while waiting for an answer). So it's possible when Truman crashed the party, she was using regular light speed comms. But it's equally likely she was using an FTL relay so she could respond as quickly as Adm. Holmon-Sanders. Such a relay could easily have been deployed by Truman for the express purpose of talking to Tsang, so it's not a substantial investment nor did it need to take place more than a few minutes earlier.

I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."

It isn't about the monetary value (investment) of seeding the system the League would be up in arms about. It is the fact that their founding member withheld information of its reality from them. Even if, somehow, you can manage to downplay the OVERALL investment of FTL, a talking point which would undoubtedly interest the League. Research. Production. Security. THEN the cost of the platforms.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Aside from that, there's no reported FTL in the system. That doesn't mean there wasn't any, but Tsang wasn't exposed to it. If there was, it was probably installed and operated by the RMN. The RMN can do that for anyone it chooses to, in any system that will accept its conditions and provide sufficient security for a state secret. Since there was no declaration of war, the SEM was a trading partner in good standing. There's no reason such an installation would be a betrayal.

Again, it is obvious there were platforms in the system. Obvious to Tsang as well. Every ship knows how long any particular phone call takes. Tsang WAS exposed to it.

Well, we know for certain, NOW, that it was legally okay for Beowulf to utilize advanced foreign tech and not confer with the League on it. The author confirmed that fact. But the author cannot control how the arrogant - browbeat them into submission for centuries - gorilla would ultimately perceive that fact. Especially when it is confronted with that fact in the midst of the largest most significant most important war operation of its life.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's no betrayal here.

I commend you because you really seem to believe that. I'll concede there was no TECHNICAL breach of contract. Again, confirmed by the author. But the entire "Karma" thread centers around Beowulf's IMPLIED obligations to the League. No, make that, to the arrogant gorilla. In the face of Operation Raging Justice and — I'm not going to specifically argue the niggling little details of a formal or de facto war, again — in the eyes of the Mandarins who controlled the gorilla, it was war. In the eyes of the 800# gorilla dispatched to wreak havoc. It was war. When a large part of the gorilla's body arrived in-system, Tsang, it was war.

Being confronted with the reality that Beowulf had been sitting on a wealth of information about the enemy's capabilities was plain outright bullshit. Tsang's lividity was not misplaced OR out of order. And, lets face it, the FTL capability the Manties possessed is a wealth of information, even without the fact that it raises accurate suspicions that Beowulf almost undoubtedly were privy to much much more. Suddenly, the SL's warships who were never able to deliver concrete proof of Manty superweapons became a moot point. Since that knowledge had rested with their own fornicating founder the entire time.

cthia wrote:That fact is what led to RFC crashing a party when we were positing that Beowulf broke some sort of "code of ethics" at the very least, if not an outright breach against the League for not divulging the reality of Manty FTL.

I'm telling you, "Straight out of a sci-fi novel," says Tsang.

I'm going to use my own lone black channel just this once, Tsang. It WAS straight out of a sci-fi novel.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:RFC gets to choose what the laws and regulations are. If he says member worlds are not required to divulge secrets it acquires to the League government, then they aren't.

An abortion that I had no choice but to concede to the author, and now to you. But even the author has a limited control of human nature, lest he wants to send me a lifetime supply of handwavium to assist in my suspension of disbelief. There's no way in hell Tsang wasn't reeling in disbelief. Enough disbelief that she could have temporarily went off her rocker at the nerve of Beowulf. The same disease that befell Honor. TemPoFuckingRary insanity-induced mayhem.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And even then there may be nuances. A member world might be obligated to pass along information material to the security of the SL.
Might? You think??? I would render that a definite obligation.

However, it seems our author disagrees. He says a member does not have to inform the SL or share any tech they may come by. I wanted to argue that point, but I had already used too many of my intransigence passes with him before. How can it not be implied that an ally would inform you of any game changing tech that can surely get you dead!? (I'll look for RFC's post to ensure I don't misquote him.) Manna!

ThinksMarkedly wrote: But there's a judgement call here: what is material to the security of the SL?

Well, I'm absolutely certain you'd have to agree that FTL technology and all of the associated tech it enabled is certainly one memo that certainly fills the bill.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: The SEM had no intention of invading the SL. There was no declaration of war, making the SEM an enemy of the SL.

It is IRRELEVANT what the SEM's invasion plans were. The Vietnamese had no intentions of invading the US either. Would it have been ok for an American ally to suddenly grow a conscience in the middle of our invasion, take matters into their own hands and "turncoat?" Besides, an enemy's plans change. Even more than that, war had already been declared upon the League by Manticore. Economic war. Kolokoltsov had informed Carmichael that closing the junctions to all Solarian registered vessels was indeed an act of war. And it was. The damned WHJ enabled an overt act of war that had lasted for centuries. The League tried to mitigate that fact and get a handle on it with the Shingaine Convention that the Manties had refused to sign. That showed their unwillingness to play fairly, as far as the League was concerned.

INCIDENTALLY, TEXTEV DOES NOT SAY WHETHER HAVEN WAS A SIGNATORY, AFAIK. WHICH WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DETAIL. IF THEY WEREN'T, THEN THE LEAGUE SHOULD HAVE LEANED ON THEM FOR SUPPORT. ESPECIALLY SINCE HAVEN KEPT BORROWING SUGAR, MILK AND TECH FROM THEM. AT LEAST TRY TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THEIR ABILITY TO CORNER THE MARKETS.


ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Beowulf System Board of Directors can truthfully say that it was trying to prevent a misunderstanding (Byng) from escalating any further than Crandall already had. And they were so saying, in the League Congress.

Bollox. I agree that Beowulf can truthfully tell an outright lie. They did NOT do all they could have done, indeed should have done, to prevent the inevitable catastrophe brewing from the misunderstanding, as I outlined in the Karma thread for tlb. Regardless of that fact, and as a direct consequence of Beowulf's failure, the time for diplomacy had passed. In the middle of war operations was NOT Beowulf's place to argue the finer points of the Constitution, or war.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The blatant illegal attempted invasion of an ally without formal declaration of war and attempted coercion and threatening of Solarian citizens (in the form of BSDF personnel) prompted Beowulf to suspend its ties until the plebiscite. When it does so, it does not have to obey League rules even if a formal declaration of war happened.

Where did you get THAT abortion? A wife's duties are still in play until AFTER the divorce is finalized. Sad, but true. In the middle of the war is the last place she better get uppity. Again sad, but true. I don't control the human nature of an arrogant abusive gorilla, so don't shoot the messenger.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Addendum

BTW, TM, I don't think Truman DID send ships in system. Remember, the RMN was afraid they would be seen as strong arming the Referendum, so they made it a point to remain at the junction, in international waters.


Good point. But there was no plebiscite or referendum yet and one wouldn't be announced for the next 7 days. The Second Battle of Manticore had to happen and report of it had to reach the League Congress before the Beowulf delegation announce it was going to hold the referendum.

Adm. Holmon-Sanders could have asked for assistance if she feared a rogue element might threaten her system. So long as those foreign forces left the inner system when the threat is cleared, I don't see a problem.

One more detail: the terminus is probably within the 12-light-hour territorial limit of Sigma Draconis, though it's Manticoran territory by treaty. That means the area around it might still be Beowulfan space.

Why didn't that sentiment include Manty superweapons?


Care to elaborate on which superweapons were threatening the Beowulf plebiscite and coercing them into doing anything?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Addendum

BTW, TM, I don't think Truman DID send ships in system. Remember, the RMN was afraid they would be seen as strong arming the Referendum, so they made it a point to remain at the junction, in international waters.


Good point. But there was no plebiscite or referendum yet and one wouldn't be announced for the next 7 days. The Second Battle of Manticore had to happen and report of it had to reach the League Congress before the Beowulf delegation announce it was going to hold the referendum.

Adm. Holmon-Sanders could have asked for assistance if she feared a rogue element might threaten her system. So long as those foreign forces left the inner system when the threat is cleared, I don't see a problem.

One more detail: the terminus is probably within the 12-light-hour territorial limit of Sigma Draconis, though it's Manticoran territory by treaty. That means the area around it might still be Beowulfan space.

Why didn't that sentiment include Manty superweapons?


Care to elaborate on which superweapons were threatening the Beowulf plebiscite and coercing them into doing anything?

So the RMN was there a week early. They were probably busy deploying their damn FTL platforms as far as the SLN knew. Which is even worse. Besides, an early arrival gels with an adversary who is there to cajole and coerce.

Holman-Sanders could not ask for help to commit treason. Nor was it advisable to emphasize and highlight any treason to its masters.

Still downplaying the fact that FTL platforms are Manty superweapons? That could have been used against the BSDF if the referendum didn't go as the Manties planned.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:53 pm

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even if Beowulf had told the SLN about FTL comms, let alone Apollo, right up until Crandall lost 70 SDs to a couple of squadrons of CAs no-one (well except for 2 people) in the SLN would have believed that neo-barbs could do what the great SLN had been unable to.

there were already reports from first war SL SDFs that manticore had vastly better compensators and VERY, VERY good missiles.

forget FTL (though it did change the rules somewhat with better recon and communication) the arrival of the SD(P) over 8 years before the fight against the SL should made the SLN at least a little cautious. sure it might have taken a couple of years before the SL heard about them, but the implications were obvious when the idea was trailed on Wayfarer in 1909PD.

add in what they did to LACs and the concept of a Carrier for them (all of which was easy to learn about post buttercup when the idiots were in charge).

you can say Beowulf should have told them but what about their own intelligence people? beowulf was just a member state; a powerful one to sure and one of the few with a proper SDF but they were not the all mighty SLN defender of liberty, freedom, slavery and whatever else the solly mega corps wanted this week. where was ONI? how did they not have even basic data on ships classes there were almost a DECADE old! ship classes that had turned modern space warfare upside down!

RFC has said more then once that the SLN is not so much a nation as it is a very limited alliance of planets that decided that they needed something to stop a repeat of the "final war" and make sure their business interests were allowed to flourish.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:12 pm

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cthia wrote:INCIDENTALLY, TEXTEV DOES NOT SAY WHETHER HAVEN WAS A SIGNATORY, AFAIK. WHICH WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DETAIL. IF THEY WEREN'T, THEN THE LEAGUE SHOULD HAVE LEANED ON THEM FOR SUPPORT. ESPECIALLY SINCE HAVEN KEPT BORROWING SUGAR, MILK AND TECH FROM THEM. AT LEAST TRY TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THEIR ABILITY TO CORNER THE MARKETS.

The League officially prohibited any transfer of technology to Haven, so Haven had to pay in hard cash or goods to the various technology companies that were willing to ignore the rules. So Haven did NOT borrow anything from the League and owes the League nothing. The tech companies were told about the advances, up to the point where Haven no longer needed the help. If those companies were more likely to tell their Mesan stockholders than the League (that might not have believed them anyway), then that is an internal problem for the League.

The following document from the Pearls of Weber, states that the tech companies did not necessarily believe the reports from Haven and that Haven did not get much help from them:
http://davidweber.net/posts/74-peep-int ... theri.html
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:32 pm

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cthia wrote:I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."
Well as you say, the text-ev isn't clear on whether FTL relays were spread around the rest of the system. Or even about when Tsang though the Beowulf SDF had been given access to any. (For all she knows Manticore only let Beowulf in on knowledge of them when they loaned the SDF a pair after Tsang appeared at Beowulf.

A Rising Thunder wrote:Tsang had her expression back under control, and her mind raced. Holmon-Sanders hadn’t just idly decided to speak to her in real-time. She’d done it to make a point; that much Tsang was certain of. But what point? So far as Tsang knew, the only people who were even rumored to possess FTL communications ability were the Manties and—possibly—the Havenites. Which meant the only place Holmon-Sanders could have gotten her FTL relay was from Manticore. But why had she gotten it? And why was she telling Tsang she had it?

And that was the only text-ev that seemed to even touch on thinking about the FTL com relay.

And given that Truman revealed a couple minutes later that she'd been on the com link listening in the whole time, there's no reason for Tsang to have seriously suspected that Beowulf was doing anything more that being allowed to use a Manticoran controlled relay; just like Tsang was being allowed to do for her responses.

There's no evidence exposed to Tsang that Beowulf had certain knowledge of the FTL communication ability for any significant length of time before it was used to contact her (and again, that contact appeared to be under RMN control)


So there is nothing in the text showing that it was obvious to Tsang that the Beowulf system contained additional FTL com relays. And even if there were more relays there's zero evidence that Beowulf had control over them or long term knowledge of them. They all could have been deployed by Truman's fleet when it slipped into the system after Tsang's arrival.

The only "betrayal" she seems to see is Beowulf refusing to stand aside and allow her to carry out her illegal and unconstitutional actions. There's no hint that she sees Holmon-Sanders's use of a Manticoran FTL relay as any kind of betrayal. Surprising; yes; but she's reacting to what's said - not really how its transmitted.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:34 pm

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cthia wrote:I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."


My argument was two-fold:

1) the buoys transmitting the comms between Truman and Tsang need not have been deployed more than a few minutes before the conversation. Tsang couldn't have known of any long-range buoys between the terminus and the planets.

2) if such a network did exist between the terminus and the inner system, it may not be a violation of any League rules and Beowulf was in no requirement to divulge its existence to the League. Secrecy may have been a condition for the installation of such a network by its operator.

I completely understand that #2 may be adhering to the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it.

Well, we know for certain, NOW, that it was legally okay for Beowulf to utilize advanced foreign tech and not confer with the League on it. The author confirmed that fact. But the author cannot control how the arrogant - browbeat them into submission for centuries - gorilla would ultimately perceive that fact. Especially when it is confronted with that fact in the midst of the largest most significant most important war operation of its life.
[...]
I'll concede there was no TECHNICAL breach of contract. Again, confirmed by the author. But the entire "Karma" thread centers around Beowulf's IMPLIED obligations to the League. No, make that, to the arrogant gorilla. In the face of Operation Raging Justice and — I'm not going to specifically argue the niggling little details of a formal or de facto war, again — in the eyes of the Mandarins who controlled the gorilla, it was war. In the eyes of the 800# gorilla dispatched to wreak havoc. It was war. When a large part of the gorilla's body arrived in-system, Tsang, it was war.


I am not at all disputing that the reaction by the SL, the SLN, or any particular officer may have been extreme, regardless of whether there was a de jure breach of rules and regulations or not, and regardless of whether the reaction was legal or not.

Being confronted with the reality that Beowulf had been sitting on a wealth of information about the enemy's capabilities was plain outright bullshit. Tsang's lividity was not misplaced OR out of order. And, lets face it, the FTL capability the Manties possessed is a wealth of information, even without the fact that it raises accurate suspicions that Beowulf almost undoubtedly were privy to much much more. Suddenly, the SL's warships who were never able to deliver concrete proof of Manty superweapons became a moot point. Since that knowledge had rested with their own fornicating founder the entire time.


Didn't Manticore disclose it had FTL when it reported what happened to Crandall? Or even to Byng? The SLN and Mandarins chose not to believe it. They also chose not to believe the number of missiles being used during the second war with Haven. There are multiple instances where we hear SLN officers call those claims "preposterous" and dismiss them out of hand. Byng himself did that.

So was Beowulf in the obligation to press the point and make the League believe it? Legally, clearly no. Morally? Maybe.

An abortion that I had no choice but to concede to the author, and now to you. But even the author has a limited control of human nature, lest he wants to send me a lifetime supply of handwavium to assist in my suspension of disbelief. There's no way in hell Tsang wasn't reeling in disbelief. Enough disbelief that she could have temporarily went off her rocker at the nerve of Beowulf. The same disease that befell Honor. TemPoFuckingRary insanity-induced mayhem.


Not disputing how Tsang or the Mandarins might have reacted. In the case of the Mandarins, how they did react.

You're completely right that they could have lashed out far more than they actually did. If this is what you want to discuss, sure. I was discussing the legal obligations, strictly to the letter of the law. That gives Beowulf some justification and therefore the ability to point to the League at large that the Mandarins are overstepping their bounds.

Where did you get THAT abortion? A wife's duties are still in play until AFTER the divorce is finalized. Sad, but true. In the middle of the war is the last place she better get uppity. Again sad, but true. I don't control the human nature of an arrogant abusive gorilla, so don't shoot the messenger.


I'm not sure what those duties are that spouses are required to one another. Speaking of acquired assets, you're probably right: until it's finalised, anything one or the other acquires may be part of the settlement.

But to take another aside, when there's a breach of contract between two companies, one of them can put the money it owes the other in escrow, pending a decision by the judicial system, which may depend on whose fault it was.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:20 pm

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cthia wrote:Even more than that, war had already been declared upon the League by Manticore. Economic war. Kolokoltsov had informed Carmichael that closing the junctions to all Solarian registered vessels was indeed an act of war. And it was. The damned WHJ enabled an overt act of war that had lasted for centuries. The League tried to mitigate that fact and get a handle on it with the Shingaine Convention that the Manties had refused to sign. That showed their unwillingness to play fairly, as far as the League was concerned.

INCIDENTALLY, TEXTEV DOES NOT SAY WHETHER HAVEN WAS A SIGNATORY, AFAIK. WHICH WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DETAIL. IF THEY WEREN'T, THEN THE LEAGUE SHOULD HAVE LEANED ON THEM FOR SUPPORT. ESPECIALLY SINCE HAVEN KEPT BORROWING SUGAR, MILK AND TECH FROM THEM. AT LEAST TRY TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THEIR ABILITY TO CORNER THE MARKETS.

But no actual declaration of war. A trade war, or economic war, isn't an actual war.

Also the Shingaine Convention was the League basically trying to pull a fast one. Remember, the League doesn't control any Junctions and IIRC only controls at most a terminus or two.

But they put forth a treaty basically requiring everyone else to always allow them unrestricted transit through all wormholes. Which means allowing unrestricted transit through sovereign star-systems' territorial space around the wormholes.

Seriously, a government with effectively no wormholes is trying to make everyone else sign up to give that non-wormhole government full access to all the wormholes. That's kind of like the EU+China trying to force everyone to accept an international treaty allowing free transit of ocean to ocean canals; because they use them and don't control any. Lots of upside for the people advocating the treaty; no real upside for Egypt and Panama to agree to it though.

Pretty sure that nobody with control of a wormhole signed that treaty unless under serious coercion from the League. Why would they, they give up control to major shippers (like the League) but don't get anything back from the League because the League owns no wormholes to allow them free transit through in return.



As for Haven, depending on the timing and the exact text of the treaty they might or might not have signed. I definitely can't see them signing it if they'd already found the wormhole to Bolthole. And they probably wouldn't want to sign on after they started considering possibly eventually seizing control of the Manticoran Junction.
But if the treaty predated all that, then maybe they'd sign on since it doesn't require them to give anything up (unless they ever do end up owning a wormhole).
OTOH does the text of the treaty require signatories to all everybody unrestricted transit; or only other signatories. If the treaty required everyone free transit then there's no upside to Haven to balance against the (possibly only hypothetical) costs.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:54 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Beowulf System Board of Directors can truthfully say that it was trying to prevent a misunderstanding (Byng) from escalating any further than Crandall already had. And they were so saying, in the League Congress.

cthia wrote:Bollox. I agree that Beowulf can truthfully tell an outright lie. They did NOT do all they could have done, indeed should have done, to prevent the inevitable catastrophe brewing from the misunderstanding, as I outlined in the Karma thread for tlb. Regardless of that fact, and as a direct consequence of Beowulf's failure, the time for diplomacy had passed. In the middle of war operations was NOT Beowulf's place to argue the finer points of the Constitution, or war.

The point of the Nuremberg Trials was that it is not permitted to stop behaving in a legal way, just because there is a war. If you believe that a war is being started illegally, then you will be complicit if you do not continue to argue the finer points of the Constitution. What Tsang wanted might have been legal (although still extremely foolish), if there had been a Declaration of War voted out by the League Assembly; but prior to that Beowulf was free to act as it did.

I quite understand the argument that the Mandarins and the League Navy would not agree with that position and might try to punish Beowulf for it. That is I what I understand you to say in your "karma" presentation. Indeed they finally did attack Beowulf in UH and lost two thirds of their force in the attempt (if I remember correctly). But of course there was no celebration, because the Mesan Alignment made a nearly simultaneous attack that killed about 40 million people.
Last edited by tlb on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:16 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:RFC gets to choose what the laws and regulations are. If he says member worlds are not required to divulge secrets it acquires to the League government, then they aren't.

cthia wrote:An abortion that I had no choice but to concede to the author, and now to you. But even the author has a limited control of human nature, lest he wants to send me a lifetime supply of handwavium to assist in my suspension of disbelief.

We have discussed elsewhere how much of what we consider human nature is based on what we consider societal norms or personal prejudices. A few years ago I had a heated discussion with another member in this forum about the possibility that women could be working in heavy manufacturing (such as ship construction at the Blackbird yards). There is no reason that RFC should feel constrained in that way, but the other person insisted that it was immutable human nature that was true now and would continue to be true thousands of years in the future. I should have pointed out that if "Rosie the Riveter" had any factual basis, then it was not true even in recent history.

You are perfectly free to consider such things as the actual legal obligations of member states to the League as against human nature, but RFC just needs to point to history to show such things as the "liberum veto" did exist. So if you want to say this is "handwavium", go ahead; others of us are happy to accept what he wrote.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:11 pm

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What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand your entire post, which seems to be wading somewhere out in left field. You consistently try to defend a woman's right to burn her bra in unrelated circumstances, against a guy who would beat you to the punch any day in a woman's defense. Analogies truly aren't your strong point.

tlb wrote: You are perfectly free to consider such things as the actual legal obligations of member states to the League as against human nature, but RFC just needs to point to history to show such things as the "liberum veto" did exist. So if you want to say this is "handwavium", go ahead; others of us are happy to accept what he wrote.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about the implied obligations of an ally. Some things shouldn't have to be written on paper. I'm sure Grayson argued the same point during High Ridge's tenure when they singlehandedly had to fund the war.

The League browbeat systems for centuries. Where was Beowulf? I can tell you where she wasn't. She wasn't sleeping around fornicating on a treasonous bed. Also, for all ears that can hear. Treason is a much more serious crime than playing around in the gray area of the Constitution.

It's certainly okay to disagree with that sentiment. But disagree at the ballot box in November as well.

Yes, gray. At the time of Operation Raging Justice, Lacoon was in full force. Economic wars are enough to make navies pay you a visit. Consider Pearl Harbor if you don't believe me. Even if you continue to ignore the fact that the Manties declaring war on the League at that time makes any lack of approval from the League's Assembly to defend itself a moot point.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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