Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: orelsi, Theemile and 25 guests

Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:55 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

cthia wrote:IINM, there were Hermes Buoys littering the system, and they were introduced to Tsang. There were way too many to have been put there "recently." Even if they were, recent additions, Tsang had to have been blown away by the revelation that FTL capability wasn't just a pipe dream, and that their own founding member was not only comfortable with them being emplaced in the system, but was actually intimate with them long enough to have gotten over the capability.


The text isn't explicit whether Truman was talking to Tsang via FTL comms. The conversations across 30 seconds of light-lag are reported as normal conversations (even the ones taking 45 minutes, as if anyone would keep staring at a screen that long while waiting for an answer). So it's possible when Truman crashed the party, she was using regular light speed comms. But it's equally likely she was using an FTL relay so she could respond as quickly as Adm. Holmon-Sanders. Such a relay could easily have been deployed by Truman for the express purpose of talking to Tsang, so it's not a substantial investment nor did it need to take place more than a few minutes earlier.

Aside from that, there's no reported FTL in the system. That doesn't mean there wasn't any, but Tsang wasn't exposed to it. If there was, it was probably installed and operated by the RMN. The RMN can do that for anyone it chooses to, in any system that will accept its conditions and provide sufficient security for a state secret. Since there was no declaration of war, the SEM was a trading partner in good standing. There's no reason such an installation would be a betrayal.

There's no betrayal here.

That fact is what led to RFC crashing a party when we were positing that Beowulf broke some sort of "code of ethics" at the very least, if not an outright breach against the League for not divulging the reality of Manty FTL.

I'm telling you, "Straight out of a sci-fi novel," says Tsang.


RFC gets to choose what the laws and regulations are. If he says member worlds are not required to divulge secrets it acquires to the League government, then they aren't.

And even then there may be nuances. A member world might be obligated to pass along information material to the security of the SL. But there's a judgement call here: what is material to the security of the SL? The SEM had no intention of invading the SL. There was no declaration of war, making the SEM an enemy of the SL. The Beowulf System Board of Directors can truthfully say that it was trying to prevent a misunderstanding (Byng) from escalating any further than Crandall already had. And they were so saying, in the League Congress.

The blatant illegal attempted invasion of an ally without formal declaration of war and attempted coercion and threatening of Solarian citizens (in the form of BSDF personnel) prompted Beowulf to suspend its ties until the plebiscite. When it does so, it does not have to obey League rules even if a formal declaration of war happened.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:05 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

cthia wrote:Addendum

BTW, TM, I don't think Truman DID send ships in system. Remember, the RMN was afraid they would be seen as strong arming the Referendum, so they made it a point to remain at the junction, in international waters.


Good point. But there was no plebiscite or referendum yet and one wouldn't be announced for the next 7 days. The Second Battle of Manticore had to happen and report of it had to reach the League Congress before the Beowulf delegation announce it was going to hold the referendum.

Adm. Holmon-Sanders could have asked for assistance if she feared a rogue element might threaten her system. So long as those foreign forces left the inner system when the threat is cleared, I don't see a problem.

One more detail: the terminus is probably within the 12-light-hour territorial limit of Sigma Draconis, though it's Manticoran territory by treaty. That means the area around it might still be Beowulfan space.

Why didn't that sentiment include Manty superweapons?


Care to elaborate on which superweapons were threatening the Beowulf plebiscite and coercing them into doing anything?
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

What we are told in the text is that Beowulf got the information from a long known and infrequetn communicating (but highly trusted) source and passed it along to Manticore. NO indication that it came from a Manticorian source. Oddly enough, we have yet to see any SEM ONI or other sources on the SL or SLN though we see a lot of information being passed back from merchant skippers and connections to the merchant marine. Also from allies (at one time or another) such as Erwhon.
Does SEM have sources imbeded in the SLN or in the SL bureaucracy? You can make assumptions but there are no hard answers. What we have seen is "diplomatic" pressure by Mantiocre on the SL for all sorts of thing but those have primarily have been to address problems caused by the SL in the form of various SLN officer or SL officials interfering with trade. SEM was effective at getting stopped outright trade in weapons and tec to PRH during the war.

But SEM agents in SL government and SLN.....narry a whisper.

Right up to the point where Adm Tsang came cruising out near Beowulf and discovered the BSDF sitting near where she wanted to be (NOT NEXT TO BEOWULF, SHE WAS GOING TO TAKE UP A STATION OUT NEAR THE TERMINUS) Tsang appears to be under the impression that she can just move her forces there and nobody will care. That the commander of BSDF shows up with those SDs and reads her chapter and verse about what Tsang is being orderd to do is ILLEGAL under the SL Constitution, what we see of the SLN has no clue that this will be a problem. That is particlarly odd as they sent an officer well ahead of Tsang who essentialy said they were going to do the ....and that was (I believe) AFTER Beowulf got the communication of what Fillerta was ordered to do....with detail plan and operations TO. Very odd.

And then Tsang doesn't seem to bother to tell "higher" that there could be a problem because BSDF appears serious about not letting her task force do what it has been sent to do. Clearly Beowulf's navy knows why she is here and is not only telling her it's illegal (no delaration of war on anybody's part) but that Tsang is going to try and take part in an attack of a Star Nation.....Tsang has got to wonder about operational security? No? Really? Nobody kicks sand at the 800 lb gorilla but the Admiral just moves a bit away from where she really wanted to be and has to keep an eye on a major portion of the BSDF that "just happens" to know what her orders are and has already told her that they WILL ENGAGE if Tsang attempts to force transit of the terminus.

Does it ever enter her mind that that "little" (not really little) SD force that Beowulf has put there to block her might have more going for it that the SLN thinks? Does she presume this is bluster and perhaps the best SFD of a League System is pulling only running a bluff on her?

Is it possible that Tsang had orders (for which we have no clue about) that if Beowulf won't let her force the transit, that Tsang will take her (remaining) ships after she has beaten to submission that BSDF force and go commit either an EE viloation or sieze Beowulf's orbitals and force it's surrender to the League? Really?

And then, the DB comes though and reports, Tsang mover, BSDF says over your dead body...and Tsang is just contimplating fighting through anyway when "surprise" there are 60 RMN SD outside Tsang's engagement range and they have FTL communciations and ....well, you know....Tsang has heard what happened to Byng and Crandall and that was with BCs and the range and these are SD's and HOLY CRAP there have been 60 SD right on top of her for How Long with no hint at all?

Sigh.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:16 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Brigade XO wrote:What we are told in the text is that Beowulf got the information from a long known and infrequetn communicating (but highly trusted) source and passed it along to Manticore.


No, that's not accurate. We are told that Manticore got the information from a source that had communicated intel only two times before (and they panned out) but had kept the communication channel open for a long time. That usually implies the source is not a person but an organisation. We aren't told the source is in Beowulf or through the wormhole to Beowulf, but that's implied. We aren't told what the other two pieces of intel were, so we can't make a judgement call of who the source could be.

And even then, there's no guarantee that the source is who Pat Givens thinks it is.

But SEM agents in SL government and SLN.....narry a whisper.


We know ONI and SIS are actually quite capable. We hear a lot more about them against the PRH. It makes sense they'd have focused there. The SEM might not have had highly placed assets in the League, but I bet you the Havenites did.

That is particlarly odd as they sent an officer well ahead of Tsang who essentialy said they were going to do the ....and that was (I believe) AFTER Beowulf got the communication of what Fillerta was ordered to do....with detail plan and operations TO. Very odd.


It is indeed after Manticore had informed the SL government -- actually, directly to Kolokoltsov, not the nominal prime minister -- they knew Filareta was coming and was requesting that they send an envoy to have Eleventh Fleet stand down.

And then Tsang doesn't seem to bother to tell "higher" that there could be a problem because BSDF appears serious about not letting her task force do what it has been sent to do. Clearly Beowulf's navy knows why she is here and is not only telling her it's illegal (no delaration of war on anybody's part) but that Tsang is going to try and take part in an attack of a Star Nation.....Tsang has got to wonder about operational security? No? Really? Nobody kicks sand at the 800 lb gorilla but the Admiral just moves a bit away from where she really wanted to be and has to keep an eye on a major portion of the BSDF that "just happens" to know what her orders are and has already told her that they WILL ENGAGE if Tsang attempts to force transit of the terminus.


A dozen or two of Beowulfan SDs are not enough to impede Tsang. Tsang knows this and Holmon-Sanders knows it too. So she's not worried about Holmon-Sanders' bluster. She knows the BSDF will back down because the alternative is that they all die when she steamrolls over them.

She's also not worried about OpSec for two reasons. One, she's communicating with a Solarian high-ranking military and she informed Holmon-Sanders of her intentions. And second, Manticore has already said they know Filareta is coming. So there is no OpSec.

Does it ever enter her mind that that "little" (not really little) SD force that Beowulf has put there to block her might have more going for it that the SLN thinks? Does she presume this is bluster and perhaps the best SFD of a League System is pulling only running a bluff on her?


It does not. At this point, Beowulf is a nice little member of the League who will do exactly what she tells them. She's arrogant so she convinces herself there's nothing to worry about. She certainly never figures that the RMN will send an advance force against her because she thinks the RMN will need every ship to defend against Filareta. So the only thing in her way is an annoying, self-entitled Vice-Admiral, albeit in the largest SDF in the League.

Is it possible that Tsang had orders (for which we have no clue about) that if Beowulf won't let her force the transit, that Tsang will take her (remaining) ships after she has beaten to submission that BSDF force and go commit either an EE viloation or sieze Beowulf's orbitals and force it's surrender to the League? Really?


I don't think she'd have orders to commit an EEV against Beowulf. That's too much to sell even to corrupt SLN admirals at this point. The MAlign needs more ground work.

But her force was designed to go through the BSDF if they really wanted to oppose her.

And then, the DB comes though and reports, Tsang mover, BSDF says over your dead body...and Tsang is just contimplating fighting through anyway when "surprise" there are 60 RMN SD outside Tsang's engagement range and they have FTL communciations and ....well, you know....Tsang has heard what happened to Byng and Crandall and that was with BCs and the range and these are SD's and HOLY CRAP there have been 60 SD right on top of her for How Long with no hint at all?

Sigh.


Uh.. minor detail: Crandall faced CAs, not BCs :)
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:06 am

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4067
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Uh.. minor detail: Crandall faced CAs, not BCs :)


Well, technically, there were a dozen BCs there, following Crandall in-system, acting as beaters of sorts. No they didn't fire, but in their company were missile tenders so they could rain he!! from on high if the SLN fleet proved tougher then they were, or did something unexpected.

Sadly, there were 5 layers in the plan to protect Spindle - Crandall didn't even last past layer 1.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:30 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:Well, technically, there were a dozen BCs there, following Crandall in-system, acting as beaters of sorts. No they didn't fire, but in their company were missile tenders so they could rain he!! from on high if the SLN fleet proved tougher then they were, or did something unexpected.

Sadly, there were 5 layers in the plan to protect Spindle - Crandall didn't even last past layer 1.


Doesn't count when she didn't know they were there in the first place.

But to cthia: if you want to talk about a risk, this was one. At this point, no one had faced SLN SDs in centuries and none had been lost to hostile attack, possibly ever. The ability for RMN to not fear 431+100 SLN SDs came from this battle; prior to it, the RMN only knew about BCs and what they extracted from the databases. At 73 SDs, this alone placed the Battle of Spindle in the Top 10 biggest battles in history in terms of SDs participating and the only contenders for bigger that I can think of were Third Yeltsin and the retake of Trevor's Star. Second Basilisk had 20+45 SDs, plus 24 more DNs. It was probably the biggest in terms of how many SDs one side brought to the party. And the most unbalanced battle in history in terms of mass and unit types.

So, was it an unnecessary risk to allow Crandall to enter the system? Should they have taken less risk on the first launch? Or were the other 4 layers Theemile is talking about sufficient mitigation?
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:00 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4067
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Well, technically, there were a dozen BCs there, following Crandall in-system, acting as beaters of sorts. No they didn't fire, but in their company were missile tenders so they could rain he!! from on high if the SLN fleet proved tougher then they were, or did something unexpected.

Sadly, there were 5 layers in the plan to protect Spindle - Crandall didn't even last past layer 1.


Doesn't count when she didn't know they were there in the first place.

But to cthia: if you want to talk about a risk, this was one. At this point, no one had faced SLN SDs in centuries and none had been lost to hostile attack, possibly ever. The ability for RMN to not fear 431+100 SLN SDs came from this battle; prior to it, the RMN only knew about BCs and what they extracted from the databases. At 73 SDs, this alone placed the Battle of Spindle in the Top 10 biggest battles in history in terms of SDs participating and the only contenders for bigger that I can think of were Third Yeltsin and the retake of Trevor's Star. Second Basilisk had 20+45 SDs, plus 24 more DNs. It was probably the biggest in terms of how many SDs one side brought to the party. And the most unbalanced battle in history in terms of mass and unit types.

So, was it an unnecessary risk to allow Crandall to enter the system? Should they have taken less risk on the first launch? Or were the other 4 layers Theemile is talking about sufficient mitigation?


She saw the BC's - they translated in after she started moving in system and started following her menacingly - well, as menacing as 12 Nikes can act when chasing 71 SDs and screen.

Trevor's Star during Thrunderbolt had more SDs on both sides and far larger screens (numerically) - though no shots were. fired.

The Pre-Havenite war largest Battle was Farley's Crossing with ~650 ships in the battle - and most were probably LACs and Frigates, with less than a dozen of the Wall participating. Manticore had 4 CLACs worth of LACs deployed as LAYER 3
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:52 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:She saw the BC's - they translated in after she started moving in system and started following her menacingly - well, as menacing as 12 Nikes can act when chasing 71 SDs and screen.


The same twelve that had already knocked Byng out. Crandall probably disbelieved that they had pulled 674 gravities, but I don't see how she could not believe that they had outranged him. All reports of New Tuscany said that exactly one BC was destroyed on either side.

Trevor's Star during Thrunderbolt had more SDs on both sides and far larger screens (numerically) - though no shots were. fired.


Oh, indeed! I'd forgotten Thunderbolt had already happened by this time. I was thinking of the battles during Operation Icarus only.

As for my ranking of Third Yeltsin, it was based on how many ships were captured. White Haven gifted 11 SDs to Grayson and the RMN kept 21 (18 DuQuesnes and 3 Havens). If this many ships were captured in serviceable condition, Parnell must have brought a lot more in. The wiki agrees and estimates 86 ships of the wall, though a few might have been DNs.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:44 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4067
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:She saw the BC's - they translated in after she started moving in system and started following her menacingly - well, as menacing as 12 Nikes can act when chasing 71 SDs and screen.


The same twelve that had already knocked Byng out. Crandall probably disbelieved that they had pulled 674 gravities, but I don't see how she could not believe that they had outranged him. All reports of New Tuscany said that exactly one BC was destroyed on either side.

Trevor's Star during Thrunderbolt had more SDs on both sides and far larger screens (numerically) - though no shots were. fired.


Oh, indeed! I'd forgotten Thunderbolt had already happened by this time. I was thinking of the battles during Operation Icarus only.

As for my ranking of Third Yeltsin, it was based on how many ships were captured. White Haven gifted 11 SDs to Grayson and the RMN kept 21 (18 DuQuesnes and 3 Havens). If this many ships were captured in serviceable condition, Parnell must have brought a lot more in. The wiki agrees and estimates 86 ships of the wall, though a few might have been DNs.

I think the RMN's DuQuesnes and Havens came from other battles in the first 3 months of the war. The rest of Haven's many losses at Yeltsin were simply destroyed. A big deal was made that White Haven deprived himself and his sailors of all that prize money.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:26 am

ThinksMarkedly
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:I think the RMN's DuQuesnes and Havens came from other battles in the first 3 months of the war. The rest of Haven's many losses at Yeltsin were simply destroyed. A big deal was made that White Haven deprived himself and his sailors of all that prize money.


13.2 billion Manticoran dollars. But since he had 12 battle squadrons himself, that prize money would have been divided by 12*8*6000 = 576,000 sailors and officers. or just under $23k on average. But of course the division isn't equal, senior officers get more, especially flag officers.
Top

Return to Honorverse