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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:25 pm

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Truman is between TF 11.6 and the terminus and, I believe, offset enough such that she is a whole different vector so Tsang would have to defend on two vectors, only one of which she can even reach with her own missle weapons. Truman can hammer Tsang from outside Tsang's engagement/powered flight range and Tsand would very shortly be having to defend (with "normal" SLN CM and energy weapons which are very limited in numbers).

Parthian Shot doesn't come up untill AFTER Fillerta screws the pooch and the SLN officer is dispatched to SOL with the tactical information on the -turkey shoot- and Kingsford realizes that there is no way the remaining SLN SD's are death traps. While the plan for Partian may have been compartmentd in "what if" scenario by an Alignment agent there is no indiction that anybody had floated that before Rageing Justice became Explosvie Diarreah.

Ok, some of the analysts (who were either keeping their mouths shut or were Alignment agents) may have decided that the information out of Byng's force and Crandall's meant that the standard SLN doctrins were not going to work but if they wanted to keep thier jobs (or their covers) that wasn't going to be pushed. It is only after Kingsford is pushing for 1st alternatives in engageing the GA and then is pushed by the Mandarins to find a way of keeping systems from either leaving the SL or supporting Beowulf that they come up with Parthian Shot to allow SLN to do something and move -in systems- "fast" to terrorize it's targets and target audience and use something other than SD's which were not likely to survive any "hit & run" raids and got caught by GA Squadrons.

Along with all this, Tsang doesn't really seem to have been told that the Junction is undefended, but more like that any capability Manticore has is concentrated in the systems. But they don't say that KNOW that, that they think that. NO direct intelegence from the area of the Junction is being given to her at all. Just orders
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:44 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Since we know by way of textev the decision to release the boat came from Beowulf, your point makes no sense. There is nobody on Beowulf's side of the junction who outranked the RMN on matters of war. And we know the Queen doesn't backseat drive.

You still haven't come to terms with karma, I see. She's not that complicated a bitch. Just a bitch.

tlb wrote:All we know from the text is that someone thinks that the decision was made by Beowulf, but that would still require authorities on Manticore to agree (since it is Manticoran Astro Control that controls traffic).

Obviously you keep presenting the idea of Tsang going bonkers, because that would match your idea of what you think Karma should dish out to Beowulf.

cthia wrote:No, tlb, it would match the portrayal of the League I made looong ago that they were a bunch of heartless maniacs. In fact, I resisted Duckk's argument when he said the SLN was not a bunch of suicidal maniacs in response to me arguing that they would simply begin kewing planets. Duckk's freezer is still full of crow. Granted, even I didn't know the full measure of the SLN's insanity. That DB could have set in motion Case Bucaneer and Parthian shot with a vengeance.

Name ONE thing that made the SLN ever fear retaliation for horrid deeds done. They certainly didn't fear Harrington.

Exactly, your idea was that the Solarian Navy was so terrible that they would take vengeance on Beowulf for its "treason". That is what you predicted and strenuously defended in the thread you keep referencing. That is what you keep presenting as a possible outcome of Tsang's fleet at Beowulf.

No one has argued that the Solarian Navy was afraid of retaliation. Instead they were supremely confident in their ability to control events, right up to the point when they had to surrender the forces at Sol to Honor. I did not say the Honor would deter them, only that Honor would take action against them even sooner if Tsang had attacked the planet.

In the interaction between Sol and Beowulf, karma was more of a bitch to Sol. The massive damage to Beowulf was solely at the hands of the Malign grievance by the Detweilers.


:lol:

Yes, I predicted the League -- Mandarins and officers -- would punish Beowulf for her deeds. What you don't seem to get is that the debt owed Beowulf by the League has absolutely nothing to do with the debt owed Beowulf by Karma. Karma and the SLN are two separate entities.

Yes, Karma was even more of a bitch to Sol. I said in that thread that she doesn't play favorites. What you never seemed to understand is the SLN is not on trial in that thread. Beowulf is.

You and I keep going back and forth on BEOWULF'S KARMA. And your lack of understanding Karma is starting to become really humorous - so much so - there are times I really feel the need to send you chocolates.

I never said the crafty old babe didn't enjoy some sort of precognizance, and hitched a ride in MAlign space then commandeered a vehicle in Solarian space. Hey, Lacoon was responsible for a lot of shortages of rides headed that way.

:lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:30 am

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To Whom It May Concern. :D

It is true that Parthian Shot and Case Bucaneer wasn't tabled until after Filareta's Folly. But also gleaned from the SL's computers is a long history of details chronicling centuries of horrid habits of browbeating systems into compliance. That virus has existed in Solarian blood for centuries. It's a mutation triggered by countless decades of resentment.

Nobody thinks Tsang was capable of such horrid acts. I do, she's Solarian by birth isn't she? I don't think she WOULD have, mind you. But who knows what she would have done in a moment of temporary insanity at the blatant proof of Beowulf's treason.

Like I said in a certain thread, if the League doesn't suspect Beowulf for the leak, then the gorilla really needs to get out of the ONI game.

But! It all became a moot point when Tsang found out about all of the Manty infrastructure that existed in the system. Compounded when Manty ships came out of the closet. I have to sympathize with Tsang. Beowulf ordered up a freighter full of nerve.

Before anyone sharpens their forks, I'm aware the author corrected us on the fact that Beowulf was not under any obligation to share her military secrets with the League.

I hardly think the gorilla would feel that way. Certainly not on the spot while face to face with Beowulf's intransigence and treason; incontinence and lack of reason.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking on behalf of rabid Solarians everywhere. In no way does this represent an overall view of my own.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 am

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cthia wrote:I don't think Tsang would have done it either. Actually, poor Tsang is still in shock and hasn't completely recovered from "some scene straight out of a sci-fi novel," as she most likely will put it. As soon as she recovers from the shock.

My point is that the possibility should have been allowed for. All through storyline, and in this battle as well, each man in the hot seat, D'Orville on this occasion, has to go out to meet the enemy because you don't know, can't know, what the lunatic will do.


Raving lunatics don't usually get to positions of leadership. Arrogant, incompetent ones appointed politically, sure. Even the RMN had that before the wars. But not lunatics.

So you offer them a way out, appealing to their sense of self-preservation. You must have heard that "a cornered animal is twice as dangerous" and you're right that if you leave your enemy no way out, they'll lash out and try to take as many of your people as they can. And sometimes the way out is blocked through no fault of your own: after the Pierre coup, retreating COs and staffers in the PN got executed.

The SLN wasn't in the business of executing its officers. It couldn't execute the politically-connected ones because of those connections anyway. So if you show Tsang or any other incompetent or arrogant officer that any action aside from retreating is a death sentence for them specifically (not just some unnamed people under their command), they'll retreat. Byng's second did that; the surviving CO in Crandall's force (O'Cleary) did that. Adm Gogunov tried to execute his orders in Hypatia in the exact same type of anger you're saying that Tsang could have, so he ate a triple broadside from a destroyer; his replacement decided to leave.

So that's why Truman de-cloaked and showed she had 60 SD(P)s.

And besides, even if she did manage to get into position, convince her subordinates that they should follow her orders, fire and escape before the defenders caught up with her, he'd be court-martialled and hung. There's no way to white-wash a direct attack on a planet.

You brought up a point I always wondered about. I'm surprised that any ships other than warships are allowed to use the junction during war. More so in this case. Ships are ordered to scatter during a war. Going thru the junction when an enemy force is on the other side seems reckless.


I assume by "during war" you mean "during an active incursion in the system." The war lasted about a year and half and the war with Haven had been going on before that. Manticore needed the Junction open and operating.

But yes, during active operations Astro Control should probably tell everyone to scatter via hyper. During the first Battle of Manticore, they needed to bring two fleets from Trevor's Star -- you want all civilians away from there as much as possible, since the Junction becomes a military target. That's for their own protection as well as for OpSec: you don't want anyone observing how many ships you've got, how they're armed, and when they'll be ready to counter-attack.

That they were allowing ships through spoke of the RMN's confidence in defending the Junction. It can also be explained away as the fog of war during the initial confusion after Eleventh Fleet's arrival. They were saying only unknown ships had arrived; that could mean someone else (not bloody likely, but also not impossible).
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:02 am

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cthia wrote:Nobody thinks Tsang was capable of such horrid acts. I do, she's Solarian by birth isn't she? I don't think she WOULD have, mind you. But who knows what she would have done in a moment of temporary insanity at the blatant proof of Beowulf's treason.


See the argument above of self-preservation. Arrogant officers prone to fits of hysteria when the world doesn't submit to their will are also those most likely to be cowards and run when faced with someone who stands up to them.

She'd have to retain enough of her rationality to redirect her forces from hyper into the inner system, an hour after learning that Manticoran forces were in the system. Her rage would have cooled down a little.

More importantly, she has to convince her staff and her subordinate COs, even ship captains to do her bidding. There's no way she could justify this besides an Edict Violation. Those officers would be looking out for their own hides, as an EEV hearing would try to determine why they carried out blatantly illegal orders. We've seen enough SLN officers either having doubts about Parthian Shot or disagreeing with its implementation, to know that statistically she'd have some of those arguing with her. And that is with carefully written orders from higher up that tried to hide the violation by limiting the targets, not spur-of-the-moment reactions that targeted the planets.

Finally, the BSDF and GA had the file on Tsang. If they thought she was this unstable, they might have acted differently.

Like I said in a certain thread, if the League doesn't suspect Beowulf for the leak, then the gorilla really needs to get out of the ONI game.


Suspecting is one thing. Proving is quite another. We don't know what other suspects they had. The RMN might have had infiltrated spies in the SLN for a long time. They actually probably do. The leak could also have come from one of their own, pillow-talking or just trying to get a good hook-in for a book deal. Given the amount of leaks and self-interest going on the SLN, this is very possible. It could also have come from one of a huge number of contractors and suppliers who were supporting the operations. Filareta didn't seem too surprised when he discovered his OpSec had been violated, after all.

So I don't see any reason why the Beowulf government should be at the top of the list of suspects.

Tsang's "courtesy" of informing the BSDF she was going to transit proves that, at least as late as Tsang's departure from Sol, the SLN did not suspect Beowulf to be anything but a loyal subject member who would do exactly what it was told.

But! It all became a moot point when Tsang found out about all of the Manty infrastructure that existed in the system. Compounded when Manty ships came out of the closet. I have to sympathize with Tsang. Beowulf ordered up a freighter full of nerve.

Before anyone sharpens their forks, I'm aware the author corrected us on the fact that Beowulf was not under any obligation to share her military secrets with the League.

I hardly think the gorilla would feel that way. Certainly not on the spot while face to face with Beowulf's intransigence and treason; incontinence and lack of reason.


AFTER the Second Battle of Manticore and especially the calling for the independence vote, yes. The Mandarin-supporting and MAlign-controlled media was painting Beowulfans as traitors and the penalty for treason is usually death.

BEFORE that, no.

DURING is the question, And I maintain that Tsang, not being equipped for nor having orders to carry out such a mission, could not have achieved it. She would not extrapolate from her orders nor would she risk her own safety in so doing.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking on behalf of rabid Solarians everywhere. In no way does this represent an overall view of my own.


Again, this is the AFTER. The media had not painted Beowulfans as traitors and fed the frenzy until after the battle.

One more detail: when you say "rabid Solarians everywhere," that assumes facts not in evidence that they were rabid everywhere. We know that intra-Kuiper the MAlign-controlled media machine did paint Beowulf as traitors. Elsewhere? We don't know for sure, but available evidence seems to suggest the message could be very different. First, the fact that the author took the time to make the intra-Kuiper and beyond-Kuiper distinction. Second, Hypatia's independence. Third, the fact that the Mandarins felt necessary to coerce systems into not supporting the GA -- true, they were attacking non-members until Hypatia, but they were inside nominal League space, so one could assume they consume much of he same news as other member worlds.

So the Mandarins may have thought that there were "rabid Solarians everywhere" when they ordered Fabius, but that was only their skewed view from Old Chicago. They were out of touch with reality.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:31 am

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Raving lunatics don't usually get to positions of leadership.


I give you ...

EXHIBIT A: HONOR HARRINGTON




Ahhhh shucks. I'm cornered.


OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH!

Wait! Wait! Wait! I did say moments of temporary-insanity-induced rabidity, didn't I?

Ouch.

Well does it help that she and I are lovers?

OUCH OUCH! AH SHI– OUUUCH! I'M OUTTA HERE! :lol:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:55 am

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cthia wrote:It all became a moot point when Tsang found out about all of the Manty infrastructure that existed in the system. Compounded when Manty ships came out of the closet. I have to sympathize with Tsang. Beowulf ordered up a freighter full of nerve.

What "Manty infrastructure" are you referencing? If you mean the missile assembly lines, I thought that the Solarian Navy did not know that until much later.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:11 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:If all the termini are sufficiently defended, the junction doesn't need to be geared up to defend against a transit. There's no way for an attacker to get ahold of a terminus before at least one ship can come through with warning that an attack is in progress and raise Case Zulu. Therefore, it only needs to defend against a local attack.
However I'd point out that you need heavier defenses to protect against a local attack than you do for a hostile transit. (Because the local attackers can use missiles, decoys, and sidewalls while the hostile transit can't for the first couple minutes they're under fire - plus the local attackers aren't emerging in a known location in the middle of what is, to all intents and purposes, a perfectly placed ambush)
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:07 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:It all became a moot point when Tsang found out about all of the Manty infrastructure that existed in the system. Compounded when Manty ships came out of the closet. I have to sympathize with Tsang. Beowulf ordered up a freighter full of nerve.

What "Manty infrastructure" are you referencing? If you mean the missile assembly lines, I thought that the Solarian Navy did not know that until much later.

IINM, there were Hermes Buoys littering the system, and they were introduced to Tsang. There were way too many to have been put there "recently." Even if they were, recent additions, Tsang had to have been blown away by the revelation that FTL capability wasn't just a pipe dream, and that their own founding member was not only comfortable with them being emplaced in the system, but was actually intimate with them long enough to have gotten over the capability.

That fact is what led to RFC crashing a party when we were positing that Beowulf broke some sort of "code of ethics" at the very least, if not an outright breach against the League for not divulging the reality of Manty FTL.

I'm telling you, "Straight out of a sci-fi novel," says Tsang.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:16 am

cthia
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Addendum

BTW, TM, I don't think Truman DID send ships in system. Remember, the RMN was afraid they would be seen as strong arming the Referendum, so they made it a point to remain at the junction, in international waters.

Why didn't that sentiment include Manty superweapons?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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