Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And what do you think the Beowulf delegation was doing in the Assembly?

cthia wrote:Sigh. Wasting their time. As supported by textev. All of the screaming they did should have been in the ears of the average Solarian on the street, who had family aboard those ships.

munroburton wrote:I don't agree. The SLN could contain as many as fifty million personnel with another hundred million cycled out into retirement/reserve. That's 150 million people.

But set against Sol's population alone, it is merely 1.25%. Set against the populations of the core worlds, it becomes more like 0.0125%.

Fewer than one percent of the League is even closely related to anyone who was ever in the SLN. It's a pressure group sadly insignificant next to the slice of population whipped up into fearing Manticoran "neobarb conquerors" by the Mandarins.

The percentage of population with relatives in the navy may be even less, when you consider navy families; that is, families with multiple members in the navy. So a few percent of people will have multiple relatives involved, but the incidence in the general population is much less.

This was the effect in the US of ending the draft and going to an all volunteer force. The bulk of the enlisted ranks now come from lower income families with less political power.

If you are speaking about the need for the House of Lords and House of Commons need to declare war before a formal state of war exists and changes the laws/regulations under which the RMN operates in the conflict with Haven (undeclared on both sides- Haven did not declare before they attached and Manticore was reacting withing parameters the RMN could without a declaration by the Legislative side of the Government)........in "Field of Dishonor" you are talking about what is required BY MANTICORIAN LAW and it doesn't pertain to the SL.

At that point, the RMN is fighting but not yet released from restrictions madated on it under the Constitution and Law prior to a formal declaration of war by the LEGISLATURE. And this is SKM vs PRH.


The SL on the other hand.....well, the Bureaucracy of the SL is calling the shots and they play by a very different set of rules. Rules, regulations and a few centuries of often ignoring the letter of the law (or making "regulations" without needing any formal approval from the SL Assembly.

Look at the three major engagements as the SLN is manuvered into attacking RMN. 1st Byng killing the destroyers and the responce by Henke. Then Crandall taking a run at Spindle and Henke taking care of that....and still no Declaration of War by the SL but they the Bureaucracy, primarily the Mandarins and the SLN act like one has been made. Then Raging Justice and SLN sends a couple of hundred 1st line SDs to capture the Manticore Home System.

By the time you get to Tsang and her TF near Beowulf the situation is crytal clear. To us, the readers, to Beowulf, to Manticore, and actualy to much of the SLN leadership and certainly to the Mandarins and the major levels of the Buracracies. The only solution the SL Bureaucracies and SLN can abide is the hammering of Manticore. Primarily because Manticore is (and for a really really long time) has stood up against the illegal practices and corruption of the League in defence of SKM and it's trading partners. Beowulf is a major trading partner and long time allied system.

Each time since Byng the RMN is essentialy reactive to threats on it and it's territory, finally it's home system.
The SLN (and the Bureaucracy) have NO INTEREST in any sort of discussion or negotiations as to finding causes and resolutions to the problems. Sure, there are all sorts of points of view on this but it still comes down to the position (that they feel they MUST take and do take) is that the SLN is the agreeved party because anything they do is right and justified and no other action is possible. And, the party that stands up to them MUST be hammered. In a very real sense, it is the loss of "Face" and then the actual and anticipated sence of future income (both to the Buracracies and to the varioius people enriching themselves off all that is going on over the centures.)

SLN in the form of both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet are not much more than enforcers of a system which is both wildly corrupt and the worst thing you can do is appear to be wrong or weak.

ALL the rules & regulations of the SLN and the various Buracracys seem to just ignore the Constitution and Laws when they are inconvenient. That appears to be standard operating procedure. So Tsang is ordered to do something which is not legal under the Constitution in support of something (Raging Justice) that IS an act of war when no war has been declared under our understandings of what goes on in Honorverse.

This is no mistake by a single officer (regardless of alone or in command of multiple ships) who does something foolish or precipitous in an error of judgment. This is a calculated and cynical attack on a soverign nation because the SL varioius actual leadership beleave it can't afford to look weak and it sees a chance to obtain a lot of wealth and power by taking Manticore and it's assets by force.

Can't you just hear the subtext screaming in the background in the Mandrin's meetings, and SLN "conversations".........Laws, we don't need not stinking laws!! Give me what I want or your dead meat.

Brigade XO wrote:If you are speaking about the need for the House of Lords and House of Commons need to declare war before a formal state of war exists and changes the laws/regulations under which the RMN operates in the conflict with Haven (undeclared on both sides- Haven did not declare before they attached and Manticore was reacting withing parameters the RMN could without a declaration by the Legislative side of the Government)........in "Field of Dishonor" you are talking about what is required BY MANTICORIAN LAW and it doesn't pertain to the SL.

At that point, the RMN is fighting but not yet released from restrictions madated on it under the Constitution and Law prior to a formal declaration of war by the LEGISLATURE. And this is SKM vs PRH.


The SL on the other hand.....well, the Bureaucracy of the SL is calling the shots and they play by a very different set of rules. Rules, regulations and a few centuries of often ignoring the letter of the law (or making "regulations" without needing any formal approval from the SL Assembly.

Look at the three major engagements as the SLN is manuvered into attacking RMN. 1st Byng killing the destroyers and the responce by Henke. Then Crandall taking a run at Spindle and Henke taking care of that....and still no Declaration of War by the SL but they the Bureaucracy, primarily the Mandarins and the SLN act like one has been made. Then Raging Justice and SLN sends a couple of hundred 1st line SDs to capture the Manticore Home System.

By the time you get to Tsang and her TF near Beowulf the situation is crytal clear. To us, the readers, to Beowulf, to Manticore, and actualy to much of the SLN leadership and certainly to the Mandarins and the major levels of the Buracracies. The only solution the SL Bureaucracies and SLN can abide is the hammering of Manticore. Primarily because Manticore is (and for a really really long time) has stood up against the illegal practices and corruption of the League in defence of SKM and it's trading partners. Beowulf is a major trading partner and long time allied system.

Each time since Byng the RMN is essentialy reactive to threats on it and it's territory, finally it's home system.
The SLN (and the Bureaucracy) have NO INTEREST in any sort of discussion or negotiations as to finding causes and resolutions to the problems. Sure, there are all sorts of points of view on this but it still comes down to the position (that they feel they MUST take and do take) is that the SLN is the agreeved party because anything they do is right and justified and no other action is possible. And, the party that stands up to them MUST be hammered. In a very real sense, it is the loss of "Face" and then the actual and anticipated sence of future income (both to the Buracracies and to the varioius people enriching themselves off all that is going on over the centures.)

SLN in the form of both Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet are not much more than enforcers of a system which is both wildly corrupt and the worst thing you can do is appear to be wrong or weak.

ALL the rules & regulations of the SLN and the various Buracracys seem to just ignore the Constitution and Laws when they are inconvenient. That appears to be standard operating procedure. So Tsang is ordered to do something which is not legal under the Constitution in support of something (Raging Justice) that IS an act of war when no war has been declared under our understandings of what goes on in Honorverse.

This is no mistake by a single officer (regardless of alone or in command of multiple ships) who does something foolish or precipitous in an error of judgment. This is a calculated and cynical attack on a soverign nation because the SL varioius actual leadership beleave it can't afford to look weak and it sees a chance to obtain a lot of wealth and power by taking Manticore and it's assets by force.

Can't you just hear the subtext screaming in the background in the Mandrin's meetings, and SLN "conversations".........Laws, we don't need not stinking laws!! Give me what I want or your dead meat.

I can not find the text, but there is a scene where the Mandarins are talking with the head of the Solarian Navy about the way he is twisting the self defense clause of the Constitution into a pretzel. The Mandarins knew that to get additional funding by direct taxation of the League members required the Assembly to pass a Declaration of War (the same problem Manticore had in Field of Dishonor). The Mandarins and the Solarian Navy were able to do many things that would have horrified the people that created the Constitution, but they were not able to do anything that required direct control of the members without that Declaration: such as taxation or requiring any member to subordinate their interests to that of the League bureaucracy.

tlb wrote:The Mandarins and the Solarian Navy were able to do many things that would have horrified the people that created the Constitution, but they were not able to do anything that required direct control of the members without that Declaration: such as taxation or requiring any member to subordinate their interests to that of the League bureaucracy.

No, at the end they decided to say 'screw the constitution' and basically decided to direct taxation and count on their control of the courts to allow it.

tlb wrote:The Mandarins and the Solarian Navy were able to do many things that would have horrified the people that created the Constitution, but they were not able to do anything that required direct control of the members without that Declaration: such as taxation or requiring any member to subordinate their interests to that of the League bureaucracy.

kzt wrote:No, at the end they decided to say 'screw the constitution' and basically decided to direct taxation and count on their control of the courts to allow it.

Please point to the text for that, since I do not have anything digital after Mission of Honor. I do not remember that, but that is precisely their solution to the problem of secession.

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:No, at the end they decided to say 'screw the constitution' and basically decided to direct taxation and count on their control of the courts to allow it.

Please point to the text for that, since I do not have anything digital after Mission of Honor. I do not remember that, but that is precisely their solution to the problem of secession.

“We go to the Assembly,” Kolokoltsov said into the silence that followed her explanation. “We tell them this is a situation—an emergency—the Constitution never contemplated. We argue that a Constitution isn’t a suicide pact. That when not simply the survival of the Solarian League as a government but of millions—possibly even billions—of Solarian citizens are at stake, we have to have the wherewithal to protect them. And that means we have to be able to levy direct taxation on those citizens. And if we have to, we argue that the individual system veto right simply cannot be permitted to stand in the way of saving lives on such a scale. We put a motion to amend the Constitution to permit direct taxation before the Assembly and tell them we need an immediate decision. That there’s no time to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s of the amendment process the Constitution mandates. Hell, all of them know as well as we do that the Founders deliberately designed that process to insure any amendment took years to approve, at the very best. That’s why there’ve been so damned few of them! But extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary measures and there’s no time for the individual system governments to be consulted and hold their own constitutional conventions. We have to act now—and if anyone doubts that, we just point at Mesa.”

kzt wrote:No, at the end they decided to say 'screw the constitution' and basically decided to direct taxation and count on their control of the courts to allow it.

tlb wrote:Please point to the text for that, since I do not have anything digital after Mission of Honor. I do not remember that, but that is precisely their solution to the problem of secession.

kzt wrote:“We go to the Assembly,” Kolokoltsov said into the silence that followed her explanation. “We tell them this is a situation—an emergency—the Constitution never contemplated. We argue that a Constitution isn’t a suicide pact. That when not simply the survival of the Solarian League as a government but of millions—possibly even billions—of Solarian citizens are at stake, we have to have the wherewithal to protect them. And that means we have to be able to levy direct taxation on those citizens. And if we have to, we argue that the individual system veto right simply cannot be permitted to stand in the way of saving lives on such a scale. We put a motion to amend the Constitution to permit direct taxation before the Assembly and tell them we need an immediate decision. That there’s no time to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s of the amendment process the Constitution mandates. Hell, all of them know as well as we do that the Founders deliberately designed that process to insure any amendment took years to approve, at the very best. That’s why there’ve been so damned few of them! But extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary measures and there’s no time for the individual system governments to be consulted and hold their own constitutional conventions. We have to act now—and if anyone doubts that, we just point at Mesa.”

I do not doubt that you have quoted this correctly, but please indicate book and chapter. For those of us that did not remember the verse, this will not cause us to suddenly remember its place in the narrative. Obviously this comes after the final Houdini explosions at the arrival of the GA fleet, but that still does not pinpoint the book and chapter.

In an interesting way this shows the Mandarins still giving lip service to the Constitution, while fiddling with Constitutional norms; since they are asking for a Constitutional amendment to permit direct taxation. Why aren't they asking for a Declaration of War which would permit the same thing for the duration? Is the speaker implying that a veto will not be recognized? Are they asking for taxation, so the tap cannot be turned off when the emergency passes?

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:“We go to the Assembly,” Kolokoltsov said into the silence that followed her explanation. “We tell them this is a situation—an emergency—the Constitution never contemplated. We argue that a Constitution isn’t a suicide pact. That when not simply the survival of the Solarian League as a government but of millions—possibly even billions—of Solarian citizens are at stake, we have to have the wherewithal to protect them. And that means we have to be able to levy direct taxation on those citizens. And if we have to, we argue that the individual system veto right simply cannot be permitted to stand in the way of saving lives on such a scale. We put a motion to amend the Constitution to permit direct taxation before the Assembly and tell them we need an immediate decision. That there’s no time to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s of the amendment process the Constitution mandates. Hell, all of them know as well as we do that the Founders deliberately designed that process to insure any amendment took years to approve, at the very best. That’s why there’ve been so damned few of them! But extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary measures and there’s no time for the individual system governments to be consulted and hold their own constitutional conventions. We have to act now—and if anyone doubts that, we just point at Mesa.”

I do not doubt that you have quoted this correctly, but please indicate book and chapter. For those of us that did not remember the verse, this will not cause us to suddenly remember its place in the narrative. Obviously this comes after the final Houdini explosions at the arrival of the GA fleet, but that still does not pinpoint the book and chapter.

In an interesting way this shows the Mandarins still giving lip service to the Constitution, while fiddling with Constitutional norms; since they are asking for a Constitutional amendment to permit direct taxation. Why aren't they asking for a Declaration of War which would permit the same thing for the duration? Is the speaker implying that a veto will not be recognized? Are they asking for taxation, so the tap cannot be turned off when the emergency passes?

That's kind of tricky since Uncompromising Honor doesn't have numbered chapters (or at least my electronic copy doesn't seem to)

I found the quote in a section headed
George Benton Tower
City of Old Chicago
Old Terra
Sol System
in the rtf format ebook's page 358 of 512

(And then there's a follow-up on page 373 of 512)

Uncompromising Honor wrote:The panic the Mesa Atrocity had awakened among the delegates would be difficult, if not impossible, to overestimate. Few people would have shed any tears if something nasty happened to Manpower; several million dead civilians, the majority of whom probably had nothing at all to do with Manpower, was some-thing else. And the fact that the Manties would openly violate the Eridani Edict, whatever they might claim to the contrary, was terrifying, especially given the dawning awareness that the Grand Alliance’s war-fighting technology was decisively superior to anything the SLN had. Under those circumstances, his argument that the Constitution wasn’t a suicide pact had found fertile ground. It was going to take some time—possibly at least a couple more months, more likely three—but in the end, they’d give him the majority he needed. Whether or not the system governments which had sent those Assembly members to Old Chicago would feel the same way was another question, but it also didn’t matter. Once the amendment was approved, however it happened, getting rid of it again would be a monumental battle, and one in which the federal bureaucracy held all the advantages.

Still they're at least kind of trying to go through something vaguely like the motions set down by law - as it sounds like they are pursuing a [constitutional] amendment. But it also sounds like they expect to be able to start taxing once a sufficient majority of the Assembly votes for it; rather than having to wait for the full ratification process. (Oh, and they seem to have somehow sidestepped the liberum veto on this taxation amendment)

They are going to use an illegal and unconstitutional process to make a constitutional amendment that totally changes the nature of the government and basically figure they can bluff it out or bog it down in their puppet courts when people object that they didn’t approve it like the law requires.

Thanks to KZT and Jonathan_S. I found the first quote on page 545 of the hard cover book (out 773 pages total). When I divide 358 by 512 and multiply the result by 773, then I get 540; which gives a rough estimate of where to look in the book (however I did not do that until after I had found the page).