Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

tlb wrote:Thanks to KZT and Jonathan_S. I found the first quote on page 545 of the hard cover book (out 773 pages total). When I divide 358 by 512 and multiply the result by 773, then I get 540; which gives a rough estimate of where to look in the book (however I did not do that until after I had found the page).

Am I alone in thinking that an official "2nd Havenite war/Solarian War" omnibus edition is required with all the storylines chopped up and sequentially lined up properly in the timeline, along with date chops?

Theemile wrote:Am I alone in thinking that an official "2nd Havenite war/Solarian War" omnibus edition is required with all the storylines chopped up and sequentially lined up properly in the timeline, along with date chops?

Which would also get rid of all the duplicate passages that were put into the books to synchronize the stories.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Am I alone in thinking that an official "2nd Havenite war/Solarian War" omnibus edition is required with all the storylines chopped up and sequentially lined up properly in the timeline, along with date chops?

Which would also get rid of all the duplicate passages that were put into the books to synchronize the stories.

I started to make one myself until ran into one of those multi perspective moments, and realized I wouldn't know how to handle it cleanly without deleting something, and that there were a sufficient # of similar points, and it would render the outcome worthless for what I wanted, but would make a cleaner read overall.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still they're at least kind of trying to go through something vaguely like the motions set down by law - as it sounds like they are pursuing a [constitutional] amendment. But it also sounds like they expect to be able to start taxing once a sufficient majority of the Assembly votes for it; rather than having to wait for the full ratification process. (Oh, and they seem to have somehow sidestepped the liberum veto on this taxation amendment)

What ratification process? There's no mention of that anywhere.

They were going to try and ask the courts for the ability to tax right now, while the amendment was being debated in the Assembly. One feeds the other: the courts take the fact that the legislative body is considering the amendment to allow for the emergency powers that had not been foreseen, while the legislators rubber-stamp the fact that the central government needs the ability to tax directly.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Still they're at least kind of trying to go through something vaguely like the motions set down by law - as it sounds like they are pursuing a [constitutional] amendment. But it also sounds like they expect to be able to start taxing once a sufficient majority of the Assembly votes for it; rather than having to wait for the full ratification process. (Oh, and they seem to have somehow sidestepped the liberum veto on this taxation amendment)

What ratification process? There's no mention of that anywhere.

They were going to try and ask the courts for the ability to tax right now, while the amendment was being debated in the Assembly. One feeds the other: the courts take the fact that the legislative body is considering the amendment to allow for the emergency powers that had not been foreseen, while the legislators rubber-stamp the fact that the central government needs the ability to tax directly.

It doesn't say "ratification" and the League constitution may not use that term.

But the quotes do say that "to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s of the amendment process the Constitution mandates" was something that "the Founders deliberately designed that process to insure any amendment took years to approve". That implies that it has to be much, much more than a simple majority vote in the assembly.

Hmm, did some more digging and found this quote (page 391 of 512)

Uncompromising Honor wrote:Stories about a new amendment to the Constitution, one designed to solve the League’s current fiscal crisis—some from accredited newsies; most anonymously sourced—were beginning to hit the public boards. Given the atmosphere here in the Sol System, the amendment—if it existed, and he thought it probably did—would probably sail through the rumored truncated ratification process, despite the several serious legal flaws in the procedure.

So there is a need to ratify the amendment -- but it's possible that they've unconstitutionally truncated that to just the majority votes in the assembly. (There is mention of a preliminary and then a final vote on the amendment).

So I might have been wrong that they were going to tax before it was ratified; and instead they're just making up a new fast-track ratification process not allowed for by the constitution and will claim it is ratified before beginning to tax.



I'd assume that normally that multi-year ratification process required the governments of each full system, not just their current representatives to the Assembly, decide whether to ratify the amendment passed by the Assembly and that a certain percent would have to do so before it took effect. That would seem to fit with the founder's overriding concern not to be dictated to by the central government they were creating. (Same reason they required the Constitution to explicitly allow any member system to succeed; their ultimate defense against being dictated to by their new central government)

And to actually ensure that the process took at least a couple years, and they didn't get a super quick ratification (riding a wave of public sentiment) like the US 26th amendment got (passed and ratified in under 4 months), they may actually mandate some kind of mandatory waiting period after the amendment is passed by the Assembly before it can be considered for ratification.


But we just don't know the actual process beyond the fact that it is supposed to take years; and that this time they're massively truncating it in some unspecified fashion.

And we know that the senior leadership of the SL ranged from somewhat corrupt and contemptuous of the constitution to actively conspiring with the enemies of the SL to commit mass murder for money while also totally corrupt and completely ignoring the limits of the constitution.

So they see no need to follow the legal procedures, they just need to carry it out in such a way that the outcry and reactions are controllable and able to be dealt with effectively and expeditiously with their puppet media, court system and occasional use of raw naked force.

I had a concern that is touched on in UH. I came across it during this much needed, much anticipated and much enjoyed reread. Namely, say there is a big company like Erewhon, or Intel, or any other conglomerate doing business on a planet that is about to secede. Of course, they don't wish their trade secrets to fall into the hands of the enemy. There are certain guarantees that may have been given to them which secession may destroy. This passage reminded me of that ...

UH wrote:“I don’t want to think Rupert would try any kind of actual sabotage, and it’s not like we’re one of the Protectorates. Alexandria Extraction’s majority-owned right here in Hypatia, with less than a quarter of the voting stock held by out-system interests, and even if he was inclined to try something like that, ninety-five percent of ABEI’s employees are Hypatian. I can’t completely rule it out, though, and the fact that his employees are Hypatian, doesn’t mean all of them supported the referendum. “There are other assets and operations here in the system, however, that are owned primarily by one of the transstellars who’re likely to think secession doesn’t bode well for their long-term economic interests. My local law enforcement people are keeping an eye on all of the perspective problem children we’ve been able to identify, but it’s been my experience that it’s seldom the problems you see coming that do the damage. I assume it’s that way in military operations, as well?”

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I wonder if it would be practical to couple freighters together, like triple-trailored semis. That way, you'd only pay for one transit. It should be cheaper.

Someone is always trying to buck the system.

No - not coupled together. That'd make the geometry all wrong.

Now if Astro Control will allow it you could do a simultaneous transit. It's riskier than a solo transit, and takes some more preparation, but it's not that risky.

Mind you they'd probably still charge you per ship so it wouldn't help.

Also it doesn't help with transit times. Even if we take a pair of small 4.5 mton ships (around the size of the JNMTC fast freighters Honor was escorting during 'In Enemy Hands') their minimum transit time normally would be 120 seconds (they'd each lock it down for 32.5 seconds, but the Junction has a 60 second separation as a minimum permitted interval). If they instead did a simultaneous transit their combined 9 mtons would lock the route down for 129.6 seconds.

(And of course most freighters are larger than that, which makes the time impact even worse)

Well whattaya know. I suppose I'm a lost Alpha line. Or my claim to be descendant from the Atlanteans rings true? . . .

“Don’t see any reason why not.” Daniel chuckled. “As a matter of fact, I figured you’d have to do that, so I’ve got another team busy designing what looks like a pair of standard Rhino-class heavy-lift cargo containers glued together end-to-end. We can fit one of these things into something that size and even tuck a presser into one end of the container. I figure that would let you drop the ‘Rhinos’ with the clock set for the Silver Bullet to deploy itself once the deploying ship’s gotten well clear.”

Did I say coupled? I meant glued. Did I say freighter? I meant container. LOL

We have discussed Manticore's high-handed trade policies affecting Haven and the SL. How did it affect the Andermani? Whose economy and expansionistic nature, like Haven, should have depended even more on trade.

cthia wrote:We have discussed Manticore's high-handed trade policies affecting Haven and the SL. How did it affect the Andermani? Whose economy and expansionistic nature, like Haven, should have depended even more on trade.

Well, Manticore has a lot of merchant shipping trading in Silesia, but so does the SL, and we have to presume there are ships from Matapan, Asgard, Haven (well, that could be iffy during the war) Erwhon and places like the Judean League. Not sure if SEM or SL has more in terms of numbers and we don't know what the numbers are for the Andermani though they are the closest (for home system and other systems) in terms of actual hyperspace. Even Manticore doesn't get closer than using the juntion routes via Gregor or Basilisk as would the SL.

From some of the books, some the Andermani are annoyed with the arrogance of Manticorians but mostly that was talked about reguaring RMN. Everybody is annoyed with the SL from that standpoint.
The Andermani see Silesia as their natual and obvioius and nessisary direction of expansion of ownership of systems in the Empire and they are close trade markets. Close is good.

The Andermani don't seem to have any of the massive problems the Peeps had since (though we are not told) they don't have the kind of welfare state with the deliberate crippling of the education system that Haven had. Nor do they have the problem of stripping aquired systems of dam near everything and then adjusting production to Haven's needs and not letting any benift of even higher production accrue to the local population.

Of course, however agrivating and overbearing any Solly merchants may be, it's merchant captains and crews, not SLN which doesn't play any role at all- even "visting" out in Silesia on "good will" tours or showing the flag. That gets to be done by RMN which has the gaul- in the opinions of some expressed in the books, of actualy showing up in Silesia and doing commerce protection and pirate interdiction that the Sillies are mostly not capable of or have the asseets nessisary to do with all their other problems of corruption, politics, breakaway systems etc.
Clearly the Andermani have been doing something similar. They also have not been able to actualy do much about the corruption nor (not addressed) the breakaway systems/revolts but they do run commerce protection. And are probaby at least partialy annoyed that RMN was comming out with (mostly) professional and capable captains & also are covering the same areas that IAN is running commerce protection outside of the AE.
I don't think many RMN think of Silesia as someplace that ought to be "theirs". The Andermani are thinking that was- based on what is presented. At least they believe it should be theirs.....but just how much how fast? Does that the Emperor see that as one chunk he can digest at one time or would be be more like grab pieces off one or two at a time and have to keep the Sillies sufficently cowed for a century our two?

We do see where that washes out when AE and SEM do both get fed up with all the crap in Silesia and split it between them.