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Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:54 am

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cthia wrote:But equivalent? When initially I can't see where the cash came for the amount of starting capital, and other miscellaneous resources it would have taken to produce an entire system. They eventually grew the help, but what about in the beginning?


You can divert a little for a long time or a lot for a short time. Bolthole was the latter, sufficiently so that Manticore spies caught it. Besides, Haven was under the scrutiny of an enemy during declared war and previously war footing.

Darius, on the other hand, was funded and colonised for a century before becoming the industrial powerhouse it is right now. And it was funded out of the coffers of companies that were already hiding huge sums of money because genetic slavery was banned by the Cherwell Convention. Hiding the money diverted to Darius from inside the money already hidden would not stand too much out to an outsider: it would look like the analysts' job of tracking wasn't complete, but wouldn't necessarily indicate there's something more going on.

But as discussed up-thread, Manpower and Jessyk weren't and couldn't have been the only sources of diverted funds. If the MAlign diverted from other, more reputable sources (such as TIY), there could be records and it someone may have noticed some time in the last couple of centuries.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:09 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:But equivalent? When initially I can't see where the cash came for the amount of starting capital, and other miscellaneous resources it would have taken to produce an entire system. They eventually grew the help, but what about in the beginning?


You can divert a little for a long time or a lot for a short time. Bolthole was the latter, sufficiently so that Manticore spies caught it. Besides, Haven was under the scrutiny of an enemy during declared war and previously war footing.

Darius, on the other hand, was funded and colonised for a century before becoming the industrial powerhouse it is right now. And it was funded out of the coffers of companies that were already hiding huge sums of money because genetic slavery was banned by the Cherwell Convention. Hiding the money diverted to Darius from inside the money already hidden would not stand too much out to an outsider: it would look like the analysts' job of tracking wasn't complete, but wouldn't necessarily indicate there's something more going on.

But as discussed up-thread, Manpower and Jessyk weren't and couldn't have been the only sources of diverted funds. If the MAlign diverted from other, more reputable sources (such as TIY), there could be records and it someone may have noticed some time in the last couple of centuries.

That actually makes sense, and you and Jonathan both hit on the same thing.

But for the initial venture capital, I still think they had to have access to the nanite compulsion from the onset, "You will transfer all of your assets to X account." LOL

You know, now that I think about it, they also could have started with all of the personal incomes of the original settlers, comprised from awakened sleepers who were wealthy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:45 pm

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cthia wrote:You know, now that I think about it, they also could have started with all of the personal incomes of the original settlers, comprised from awakened sleepers who were wealthy.

Well not sleepers because by the time Detweiler led his followers from Beowulf to found Mesa reasonable safe hyperspace travel Warshaski detectors and sails, had existed for almost two centuries (1273 - 1460 PD). Even though restricted to the lower bands of hyperspace that still makes the trip from Beowulf to Mesa less than a year. I don't believe any of the colonies settled through hyperspace used suspension technology.

But yes, the MAlign probably had access to quite a lot of the money and investments of those who set off to follow Detweiler's vision. And with centuries to invest that under various identifies in all kinds of investments all over the League (and later beyond) they could have amassed quite the hidden war chest to use to support their schemes -- and eventually to build up their hidden base at Darius.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:49 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:You know, now that I think about it, they also could have started with all of the personal incomes of the original settlers, comprised from awakened sleepers who were wealthy.

Well not sleepers because by the time Detweiler led his followers from Beowulf to found Mesa reasonable safe hyperspace travel Warshaski detectors and sails, had existed for almost two centuries (1273 - 1460 PD). Even though restricted to the lower bands of hyperspace that still makes the trip from Beowulf to Mesa less than a year. I don't believe any of the colonies settled through hyperspace used suspension technology.

But yes, the MAlign probably had access to quite a lot of the money and investments of those who set off to follow Detweiler's vision. And with centuries to invest that under various identifies in all kinds of investments all over the League (and later beyond) they could have amassed quite the hidden war chest to use to support their schemes -- and eventually to build up their hidden base at Darius.

Of course you're right, but I didn't mean sleeper in the standard sense. I'm assuming when Detweiler got fed up with Beowulf and decided to call a cab to get out of dodge, it actually took some planning. He needed to make some calls, contact some friends, acquire some equipment, tie together some loose ends, murder some people to cover his tracks and yadda...you know, all of the normal planning that goes on before a huge road trip. All of the people joining him would need time to do all of the same, and they would need to keep quiet about everything. Sleeping with the knowledge of future escape.

I wonder how long it took after he decided to relocate to actually pull it off.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:18 pm

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Setting up Bolt Hole and Darius both required a lot of investment and transport.

Bolt Hole had a base population to start with but they needed to be educated up to various skill levels (and taught at least Standard) and Haven would have had to ship in lots and lots of people with both technical and educational skill (trainers on equipment if nothing else). Haven woud have had to have shipped in all sorts of equipment and machinery at various levels of complexity and tech. You have to provide the population with the training but also the tools and that is going to be all the tools in an intergrated manufacturing system to produce starships with their weapons/systems/ drives etc. Same for the orbital yards and the infrastructure to build copies of everything Haven is shipping. And, you know, thinks like communicatoins cable and nanites to grow armer and molycrilic computer components and a wide range of both civilian and miitary gear to let you live and work in space. But they did have a human population to start with.
Haven had a lot of systems to draw people from (and they were not going to let them go back home) but they also had a lot of places where they could manufacture at least the initial rounds of equipment to build what was needed on site at Bolt Hole (in orbit or on the planet as nessisary) and source it widely from "common" (to Haven) designers even if high end military fabriction equipment.

Darius, on the other hand, had nothing but what we believe is a human inhabitable planet. No people, no known plants, animals, whatever that were capable of being used as food for humans. So the Alignment had to bring in everything to start a fast growing colony from scratch. With their ability to clone and grow the non-slaves (Dariusites?) there would be an expanding population base with the practical limits at the max efficency and expantion rate of the clone farms and food producdtion growth. Then there is building the infrastrucutre.
They might have ordered a lot of machines and things from sources on Mesa- and covered them as sales to other systems, or they bought a lot of things from a lot of places (compleat with all the relevent manuals, pairs, and other things needed) and set them up on and around Darius to start production. Brought some core Alignment people in and started training up the new non-slaves in mostly concentrated technical or "trades" tracks to support both the population and build out the industry. That would be both on planet and the orbital habitats/faciliets that would be needed for fabrication and building of things like starships.

As far as funding the Alignment, if they had part ownership in various TransStellars they could be siphoning off all sorts of funds. Heck, they could be brokinging deals to sell stuff to their own companies with massive (and invisible ) fees being taken and shunted into the invisable hole of the Alignment and nobody would see it.
They also arn't shipping money/credits to Darius, just "stuff". Credits- in whatever form of whatever benchmark currency you wish- would stay out with the "normal" humans. Darius will have it's own semi-closed regular economy and what comes in or goes out really isn't getting looked at by anybody but the Alignment accountants.
We know that genetic slavery- by the time we see Zilwicki and Cachet involved- isn't really a big money maker. What it has always been, though, is a cover and front for the genetic engineering and experiments for the Alignment with the production of various lines for sale outside of the Alignment as more layers of cover, particularly the base costs of production. Manpower makes a lot of money but apparently not much in the way of real profit comes from the sale of genetic slaves. And we are not yet told how the Alignment has been funding itself.
Darius could be considered something like a Plan driven Communest Economy with the majority of production (from "people" to food, to starships and weapons) laid out with enough "slack" in the non-military sector to give the inhabitants a reasonalby high standard of living. Really long range plans, not "5-year" stuff. Of course they have nothing to compare theirs too but they are also not litteraly being driven like slaves and believe the narative they are being taught and held under by the Alignment with the Star Lines more or less safely buffered from the non-Star population.
You will need to ask the author, that was just a guess.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:43 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Bolt Hole had a base population to start with but they needed to be educated up to various skill levels (and taught at least Standard) and Haven would have had to ship in lots and lots of people with both technical and educational skill (trainers on equipment if nothing else). Haven woud have had to have shipped in all sorts of equipment and machinery at various levels of complexity and tech. You have to provide the population with the training but also the tools and that is going to be all the tools in an intergrated manufacturing system to produce starships with their weapons/systems/ drives etc. Same for the orbital yards and the infrastructure to build copies of everything Haven is shipping. And, you know, thinks like communicatoins cable and nanites to grow armer and molycrilic computer components and a wide range of both civilian and miitary gear to let you live and work in space. But they did have a human population to start with.
Haven had a lot of systems to draw people from (and they were not going to let them go back home) but they also had a lot of places where they could manufacture at least the initial rounds of equipment to build what was needed on site at Bolt Hole (in orbit or on the planet as nessisary) and source it widely from "common" (to Haven) designers even if high end military fabriction equipment.

Depending on how long the startup process was, much of the final construction machinery could be built in place by the people of Sanctuary; much as Manticore is rebuilding its construction stations using smaller, more general purpose machinery. That lessens the shipping requirements to only the training equipment and general purpose construction modules. The people of Sanctuary received the benefits of modern medicine in return.

I believe the story has most all the construction in orbitals, the same as was done at Manticore.

Darius was set up over a much longer time frame and so would not have the problem with training.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:36 pm

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tlb wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Bolt Hole had a base population to start with but they needed to be educated up to various skill levels (and taught at least Standard) and Haven would have had to ship in lots and lots of people with both technical and educational skill (trainers on equipment if nothing else). Haven woud have had to have shipped in all sorts of equipment and machinery at various levels of complexity and tech. You have to provide the population with the training but also the tools and that is going to be all the tools in an intergrated manufacturing system to produce starships with their weapons/systems/ drives etc. Same for the orbital yards and the infrastructure to build copies of everything Haven is shipping. And, you know, thinks like communicatoins cable and nanites to grow armer and molycrilic computer components and a wide range of both civilian and miitary gear to let you live and work in space. But they did have a human population to start with.
Haven had a lot of systems to draw people from (and they were not going to let them go back home) but they also had a lot of places where they could manufacture at least the initial rounds of equipment to build what was needed on site at Bolt Hole (in orbit or on the planet as nessisary) and source it widely from "common" (to Haven) designers even if high end military fabriction equipment.

Depending on how long the startup process was, much of the final construction machinery could be built in place by the people of Sanctuary; much as Manticore is rebuilding its construction stations using smaller, more general purpose machinery. That lessens the shipping requirements to only the training equipment and general purpose construction modules. The people of Sanctuary received the benefits of modern medicine in return.

I believe the story has most all the construction in orbitals, the same as was done at Manticore.

Darius was set up over a much longer time frame and so would not have the problem with training.

It seems Darius would have had the same problems initially, but without the added pressure of a pressing completion date. I'm not so sure how the Sanctuarians could have been so productive, being so wet behind the ears in all tech. No, drowning behind the ears. Plus never having been in space, wore a suit, anything. Even the most simple tech would have been too modern for them. Think Alvin Toffler's Future Shock squared.

Brigade, you did a fine job of fleshing everything out.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:16 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Well not sleepers because by the time Detweiler led his followers from Beowulf to found Mesa reasonable safe hyperspace travel Warshaski detectors and sails, had existed for almost two centuries (1273 - 1460 PD). Even though restricted to the lower bands of hyperspace that still makes the trip from Beowulf to Mesa less than a year. I don't believe any of the colonies settled through hyperspace used suspension technology.


It might have happened to colonies out past the boondocks.

One possible target is Haven itself. There was no colony that way when the Jason left Earth and Jason went that far because the Binary System was such a tempting target. But by they time they arrived, the Republic of Haven already existed. That means whatever colony ships reached Haven were faster than the Jason in order to overtake it. And it couldn't have been a wormhole bridge, since none were found until 1423 PD, 114 T-years after Haven was founded.

And yet Haven is further out from Earth than Manticore's 512 light-years. Given that there are only 36 years between Adrienne Warshawski's invention of the sails and the detectors bearing her name and Haven's founding, it's highly likely they went via hyperspace. That trip would take well over over a year in the beta band (383.5c apparent speed) or close to one year in the gamma (736.5c). Given that the Haven Expedition was very well-funded, they probably had a lot of colonists. To me, that means they were put to sleep, even if for under two years: no sense in having 50,000 or more people awake, eating food, and generating heat.

We'll hopefully learn more in the next Companion book.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:25 pm

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cthia wrote:Of course you're right, but I didn't mean sleeper in the standard sense. I'm assuming when Detweiler got fed up with Beowulf and decided to call a cab to get out of dodge, it actually took some planning. He needed to make some calls, contact some friends, acquire some equipment, tie together some loose ends, murder some people to cover his tracks and yadda...you know, all of the normal planning that goes on before a huge road trip. All of the people joining him would need time to do all of the same, and they would need to keep quiet about everything. Sleeping with the knowledge of future escape.

I wonder how long it took after he decided to relocate to actually pull it off.


There's no reason to suspect anyone emigrated to Mesa in hiding. There was no Alignment until well after Leonard's death, after all.

Oh, there were very likely secret accounts that got transferred. The people who emigrated were, like Leonard, pushing the edges or past the limit of the Beowulf Code of Ethics. So I don't think anyone would be surprised if these people had undeclared accounts and assets, which they used to receive payment for off-books operations they performed or to fund further research into what they needed. Ditto for companies, not just people.

As for how long? Probably less than 5 T-years. Colonies were and still are being set up every few years and the know-how is there. Hire a few colony ships to transport the people and you're set.
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Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:56 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Of course you're right, but I didn't mean sleeper in the standard sense. I'm assuming when Detweiler got fed up with Beowulf and decided to call a cab to get out of dodge, it actually took some planning. He needed to make some calls, contact some friends, acquire some equipment, tie together some loose ends, murder some people to cover his tracks and yadda...you know, all of the normal planning that goes on before a huge road trip. All of the people joining him would need time to do all of the same, and they would need to keep quiet about everything. Sleeping with the knowledge of future escape.

I wonder how long it took after he decided to relocate to actually pull it off.


There's no reason to suspect anyone emigrated to Mesa in hiding. There was no Alignment until well after Leonard's death, after all.

Oh, there were very likely secret accounts that got transferred. The people who emigrated were, like Leonard, pushing the edges or past the limit of the Beowulf Code of Ethics. So I don't think anyone would be surprised if these people had undeclared accounts and assets, which they used to receive payment for off-books operations they performed or to fund further research into what they needed. Ditto for companies, not just people.

As for how long? Probably less than 5 T-years. Colonies were and still are being set up every few years and the know-how is there. Hire a few colony ships to transport the people and you're set.

I'm talking about when the entire lot of them left for Darius.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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