Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:No - not coupled together. That'd make the geometry all wrong.

Now if Astro Control will allow it you could do a simultaneous transit. It's riskier than a solo transit, and takes some more preparation, but it's not that risky.

Mind you they'd probably still charge you per ship so it wouldn't help.

Also it doesn't help with transit times. [snip]

Geometry all wrong? Like an ugly monstrosity trying to prevent wedge fratricide? It would only be for a short time. Linked up just prior to transiting.

But. If it COULD be accomplished, Manticore would have to allow it if it could be effected in the same time-frame as one transit. And it should be cheaper, saving the cost of a transit. It should also help the MBS move more traffic as well.

The sails have to be withing a pretty limited percent of the end of the ship, and you have to use sails to transit a wormhole. So you definitely can't couple them together side by side because then their sails would hit each other - so it'd have to be nose to tail.

We've no reason to believe that a 4 sail linked ship could work; you'd have that pair in the middle. But using just the formost and aftmost sail have them in the wrong spot - they're now too close to the ends for this double-length ship. (And I'm not sure how perfectly parallel the alpha rings need to be; you might not be able to get sufficient alignment accuracy coupling them together.

So, like I said, the geometry would be all wrong.

And why would Manticore have to allow it?
And why would they let 2 ships transit for the price of one?

It's no faster than a regular simultaneous transit; and they don't allow merchants to do those. And because the lockdown is proportional to the square of the total transiting mass a 2-ship transit (however accomplished) locks down the junction longer than having the ships go through one at a time (even allowing for the 60 second separation unless the ships are tiny)

Cornering the market on trade is one thing.

Cornering the market on the Stock Exchange and/or commodities market is quite another. I don't see how other systems can compete with the MBS. Buying and selling stocks and commodities is based on news flow. If you have faster, reliable access to the news, you can break the bank and everyone else along with it. Manticore can be bullish on the market.

The Dukes attempted to corner the market on frozen concentrated orange juice (FCOJ). They thought they had the crop report looong before the masses. Seconds could mean billions—who knows with the insane lead time the MWJ gives Manticore.

It would seem that the MBS has a never ending stream of insider information. I'm certain the author knows how all of these money matters remain fair in the Honorverse, and how the financial markets can still successfully operate. I just don't have access to that blueprint. The only thing I can see is that the MBS is built on the Honor system. Pun intended.

****** *

Explaining the climax scene of "Trading Places"

The End of "Trading Places," Explained
BY TAYLOR TEPPER MARCH 30, 2016
Dumb Money: "Trading Places" Explained
MONEY writer Taylor Tepper discusses the events that lead to the final scene of the film Trading Places.

How did Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy win at the end of Trading Places?

Investors make money when they buy low and sell high. In Trading Places, Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd sell high and then buy low. Either way, they make a lot of money.

So what happened?

It starts with some insider information. Aykroyd and Murphy steal a report that will cause the price of orange juice to fall, and replace it with a report that says OJ prices will rise. They do this because they know their enemies, the Duke brothers, will trade on the phony report.

Moving to the big scene, the Duke brothers, through their trader, starts buying OJ futures. Then everyone buys. The value skyrockets.

Once the price gets to a high point, and the whole market thinks the price will only go up, Aykroyd calls out a promise to sell OJ at that high price in the future. Essentially he is making a bet that the price will fall. (He knows it will because he’s read the report.)

Basically, he buys a lot of orange juice for very cheap, and sell it for a lot of money. The Dukes didn’t.

P.S.: Don’t try this at home. Lots of stuff in Trading Places, including insider trading, is illegal. Trading commodity futures is also a terrific way for individual investors to end up as broke as the Dukes at the end of the movie.

Included as reference.

cthia wrote:Cornering the market on trade is one thing.

Cornering the market on the Stock Exchange and/or commodities market is quite another. I don't see how other systems can compete with the MBS. Buying and selling stocks and commodities is based on news flow. If you have faster, reliable access to the news, you can break the bank and everyone else along with it. Manticore can be bullish on the market.

The Dukes attempted to corner the market on frozen concentrated orange juice (FCOJ). They thought they had the crop report looong before the masses. Seconds could mean billions—who knows with the insane lead time the MWJ gives Manticore.

It would seem that the MBS has a never ending stream of insider information. I'm certain the author knows how all of these money matters remain fair in the Honorverse, and how the financial markets can still successfully operate. I just don't have access to that blueprint. The only thing I can see is that the MBS is built on the Honor system. Pun intended.

****** *

Explaining the climax scene of "Trading Places"

The End of "Trading Places," Explained
BY TAYLOR TEPPER MARCH 30, 2016
Dumb Money: "Trading Places" Explained
MONEY writer Taylor Tepper discusses the events that lead to the final scene of the film Trading Places.

How did Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy win at the end of Trading Places?

Investors make money when they buy low and sell high. In Trading Places, Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd sell high and then buy low. Either way, they make a lot of money.

So what happened?

It starts with some insider information. Aykroyd and Murphy steal a report that will cause the price of orange juice to fall, and replace it with a report that says OJ prices will rise. They do this because they know their enemies, the Duke brothers, will trade on the phony report.

Moving to the big scene, the Duke brothers, through their trader, starts buying OJ futures. Then everyone buys. The value skyrockets.

Once the price gets to a high point, and the whole market thinks the price will only go up, Aykroyd calls out a promise to sell OJ at that high price in the future. Essentially he is making a bet that the price will fall. (He knows it will because he’s read the report.)

Basically, he buys a lot of orange juice for very cheap, and sell it for a lot of money. The Dukes didn’t.

P.S.: Don’t try this at home. Lots of stuff in Trading Places, including insider trading, is illegal. Trading commodity futures is also a terrific way for individual investors to end up as broke as the Dukes at the end of the movie.

Included as reference.

A good % of the galaxy's large Financial Markets are on Manticore in Landing for this very reason. Since it is the center of information it makes sense for the markets to be colocated. So Manticore has no advantage over anyone else - they have trading reps on Manticore as well.

A good percentage of the Financial Marketplaces have representitives ON Manticore but the actual exchanges are located in lots of places. So are the various headquaters of these financial companies. Like Bank of New Madrid.....which would seem to be located on New Madrid.

Lots of BANKS and Stock Brokerages will have branches on Manticore.

You are talking about an interstellar banking and financial system that has grown up over centuries. They have adjusted to the time lags. Information flows no faster than ships in hyperspace. You could have a DB transmit information- encrypted etc- when it enters a system to initiate buying various stocks but that leaves lots of traces. Sending electronic mail would work better and be tougher to track if you were trying to steal time on making trades base on what you found out on X plante and you had an account or "assocate" on R planet.

Manticore is a financlal hub and tradeing nexus by virtue of the Junction. It's merchant marine etc seem to work harder, smarter and more efficiently. It has a Navy which is focused (and grew) on Commerce and it's protection. It's banking and financing laws encourage investment and apparently deliver on safety. Legal system that works and it's tied to a kleptocracy. Mantcore worked at creating this enviornment. Cornering isn't the right word- unless you are really envious and don't want to work or do it legaly.

Brigade XO wrote:A good percentage of the Financial Marketplaces have representitives ON Manticore but the actual exchanges are located in lots of places. So are the various headquaters of these financial companies. Like Bank of New Madrid.....which would seem to be located on New Madrid.

Lots of BANKS and Stock Brokerages will have branches on Manticore.

You are talking about an interstellar banking and financial system that has grown up over centuries. They have adjusted to the time lags. Information flows no faster than ships in hyperspace. You could have a DB transmit information- encrypted etc- when it enters a system to initiate buying various stocks but that leaves lots of traces. Sending electronic mail would work better and be tougher to track if you were trying to steal time on making trades base on what you found out on X plante and you had an account or "assocate" on R planet.

Manticore is a financlal hub and tradeing nexus by virtue of the Junction. It's merchant marine etc seem to work harder, smarter and more efficiently. It has a Navy which is focused (and grew) on Commerce and it's protection. It's banking and financing laws encourage investment and apparently deliver on safety. Legal system that works and it's tied to a kleptocracy. Mantcore worked at creating this enviornment. Cornering isn't the right word- unless you are really envious and don't want to work or do it legaly.

What is your basis for calling Manticore a kleptocracy, if I understand you correctly?

Theemile wrote:

munroburton wrote:
Anything over the compensator's mass limit can be fitted with grav plates and still move at up to ~150g. The (7MT) Caravan-class freighter's 80% max accel is listed as 152g, so this is clearly adequate for civilian traffic.

The problem with 150gs being limited by grav plates is the crew still feels 5 gs. Fine for battle maneuvers strapped into a grav couch with anti-grav suits. But hours or days on end? How do you eat, or sleep, or bathe? No, any non-battle maneuvers are limited to 50gs on RMN grav plates, and 100 on MAlign plates, where the crew still has a 1g shirt sleeve environment.

All ships have shuttles with compensators. Install the grav plates for 150G's, and dump all the crew into a shuttle for ~10 hours while it gets up to speed. Then cruise the hyperwaves. No reason the crew compartment would not be right next to shuttle bay on exterior of hull. Just like the Fusion plant is. NO reason a crew could not embark in 5 minutes and use a shortrange remote control with 1950's tech. If remote drops, acceleration stops. Pretty damned simple setup.

EDIT: Heck, how big some of those shuttles are, and how small the crew is, why not just have the crew quarters in the Shuttle? Or if a BIG cargo shuttle capable of holding an entire Honorverse equivalent of a TEU, just house everyone in that and have the shuttle grab said special "TEU" and go. Plenty of space. You would think this would be true due to piracy anyways. You would think this would be true as a cost basis analysis anyways.

I see no reason to not have compensatorless bulk carriers. Other than on a $$$ basis. For all we know, those grav plates cost more than a compensator which may come practically free with alpha nodes which you must have anyways.

munroburton wrote:Anything over the compensator's mass limit can be fitted with grav plates and still move at up to ~150g. The (7MT) Caravan-class freighter's 80% max accel is listed as 152g, so this is clearly adequate for civilian traffic.

Theemile wrote:The problem with 150gs being limited by grav plates is the crew still feels 5 gs. Fine for battle maneuvers strapped into a grav couch with anti-grav suits. But hours or days on end? How do you eat, or sleep, or bathe? No, any non-battle maneuvers are limited to 50gs on RMN grav plates, and 100 on MAlign plates, where the crew still has a 1g shirt sleeve environment.

Relax wrote:All ships have shuttles with compensators. Install the grav plates for 150G's, and dump all the crew into a shuttle for ~10 hours while it gets up to speed. Then cruise the hyperwaves. No reason the crew compartment would not be right next to shuttle bay on exterior of hull. Just like the Fusion plant is. NO reason a crew could not embark in 5 minutes and use a shortrange remote control with 1950's tech. If remote drops, acceleration stops. Pretty damned simple setup.

EDIT: Heck, how big some of those shuttles are, and how small the crew is, why not just have the crew quarters in the Shuttle? Or if a BIG cargo shuttle capable of holding an entire Honorverse equivalent of a TEU, just house everyone in that and have the shuttle grab said special "TEU" and go. Plenty of space. You would think this would be true due to piracy anyways. You would think this would be true as a cost basis analysis anyways.

I see no reason to not have compensatorless bulk carriers. Other than on a $$$ basis. For all we know, those grav plates cost more than a compensator which may come practically free with alpha nodes which you must have anyways.

I have seen a quote from RFC somewhere saying compensatorless cargo ships exist, but did not find it.

I am pretty sure that RFC has ruled out any combination of multiple compensators or grav-plate compensator combinations; but again I cannot find that quote.

The compensator works by using the wedge as a sump, so it seems clear that it would have to be more integrated than just jumping into a shuttle and flipping a switch.

But having 50g instead of 150g, only means that the acceleration to cruising speed takes 3 times as long; also the braking. For some applications that might not be an economic hardship.

Oi! Sorry everyone and TLB for my VERY badly written 1st paragraph...

Too many changes in subject and its and they's pointing to wrong subject. Did I ever mention I am an engineer and not an English major

How it ***SHOULD*** have been written:
All ships have shuttles with compensators; use them. Install the grav plates on the main cargo Ship for 150G's, and dump all the crew into a shuttle for ~10 hours while the main ship gets up to speed. Then, dock, cruise the hyperwaves/space. No reason the crew compartment would not be right next to shuttle bay on the exterior of hull. Just like the Fusion plant is. NO reason a crew could not embark in 5 minutes into a shuttle and use a shortrange remote control with 1950's tech to manage the acceleration of the ship. If remote drops, acceleration stops. Pretty damned simple setup.

Hope that clears up some horrible grammar, etc.

Relax wrote:
I see no reason to not have compensatorless bulk carriers. Other than on a $$$ basis. For all we know, those grav plates cost more than a compensator which may come practically free with alpha nodes which you must have anyways.

Well under your design you'd need to be sure your bulk cargo didn't mind hours at 5g (assuming 150g and grav plates). I guess most shuttles are probably good for 350-400g (The latest Manticoran miliatary ones much higher) so if you wanted to take full advantage then the cargo needs to take hours at 13-1/3g

Oh, and the ship systems, down to things like the fusion plant need to happy with that level of experienced acceleration too (or far higher if you only put grav plates in the cargo bay)

Hmm, and presumably if accelerating using the wedge then the direction of acceleration pushes everything towards the stern; so your ship is much more like a skyscraper with lots of small decks stacked vertically than it is like a classic ship with many fewer decks running from bow to stern. (Honor's ship's at Hades presumably didn't have to deal with that odd angle of acceleration since the used the fusion jets that pointed down from their bellies; so the deck orientation wouldn't change)

Plus of course you need a willingness to remote control, with nobody aboard, it from a few hundred km away since the shuttle carrying the crew needs to have its wedge up in order to have compensation and that must be clear of the wedge of the giant bulk carrier. (Oh, and since shuttles can't travel in grav waves your routes, while under >30g acceleration, are limited)


The downsides and complexity hardly seems worth it for the extra few hundred comfortable gs when the acceleration time is such a small fraction of the total transit time of most routes. If you really needed to move such bulk you'd probably be happy enough with a 30g acceleration where the grav plates should be able to manage a normal deck orientation at 1g.

Relax wrote:Oi! Sorry everyone and TLB for my VERY badly written 1st paragraph...

Too many changes in subject and its and they's pointing to wrong subject. Did I ever mention I am an engineer and not an English major

How it ***SHOULD*** have been written:
All ships have shuttles with compensators; use them. Install the grav plates on the main cargo Ship for 150G's, and dump all the crew into a shuttle for ~10 hours while the main ship gets up to speed. Then, dock, cruise the hyperwaves/space. No reason the crew compartment would not be right next to shuttle bay on the exterior of hull. Just like the Fusion plant is. NO reason a crew could not embark in 5 minutes into a shuttle and use a shortrange remote control with 1950's tech to manage the acceleration of the ship. If remote drops, acceleration stops. Pretty damned simple setup.

Hope that clears up some horrible grammar, etc.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well under your design you'd need to be sure your bulk cargo didn't mind hours at 5g (assuming 150g and grav plates). I guess most shuttles are probably good for 350-400g (The latest Manticoran miliatary ones much higher) so if you wanted to take full advantage then the cargo needs to take hours at 13-1/3g

Plus of course a willingness to remote control, with nobody aboard, it from a few hundred km away since the shuttle carrying the crew needs to have its wedge up in order to have compensation and that must be clear of the wedge of the giant bulk carrier. (Oh, and since shuttles can't travel in grav waves your routes, while under >30g acceleration, are limited)

The downsides and complexity hardly seems worth it for the extra few hundred comfortable gs when the acceleration time is such a small fraction of the total transit time of most routes.

Sorry that I did not catch what you meant initially.

All in all an interesting concept. The shuttle would have to dock when jumping into the hyperspace bands and there might be times when you would have to dial back to 50gs in hyperspace as Jonathan_S mentions.

Make it a DB, instead of a shuttle, and you could work this in grav waves also. Would you need to dock to ensure coordination when doing the hyperspace transitions, or would they stay together like a convoy? Might be better docked for a wormhole transition.