Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

penny wrote:There is a reason I decided to use this old thread for the thought. Stock market quotes emanating from key financial hubs around the galaxy, like the MBS, are very high priority and very confidential. On Wall Street, time is money. If the latest stock quotes are disseminated using very slow means of travel like freighters, then someone like the "Dukes" can get to a system much quicker with a Dispatch Boat or an even faster Dispatch boat and corner the market.

Time is money in the financial sector.

I doubt the Honorverse financial sector is going to be trying to trade in interstellar stock exchanges via the remove of a dispatch boat. They're fast, but even the very fastest possible link between major markets would probably be Manticore to Beowulf, and that's on the order of 15-20 minutes delay each way (using FTL Hermes buoy relays from the planet to the Junction, jumping a ship through immediately with the data, then FTL to the other planet). Anybody else with a junction is looking at a minimum of 10+ hours each way (lightspeed radio replacing FTL).
And to any place without a convenient wormhole the fastest data can travel between the markets is days to months.

You might invest in companies in another star system - but you'd either be doing it as a long term buy and hold plan (where exact timing is largely irrelevant) or you'd have an agent, local to that system's stock exchange, empowered to do whatever quicker reaction trading you might need.

And so the DBs wouldn't seem to be a major factor in either of those.

Jonathan_S wrote:You might invest in companies in another star system - but you'd either be doing it as a long term buy and hold plan (where exact timing is largely irrelevant) or you'd have an agent, local to that system's stock exchange, empowered to do whatever quicker reaction trading you might need.

And so the DBs wouldn't seem to be a major factor in either of those.

Plus, shooting the DB is like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, because the DB will have transmitted everything that that system needed to know the moment it came out of hyperspace. You'd have to have the attacking ship within one million km of the emergence point (which granted will be on the hyperlimit or so close that it doesn't make a difference), but that's also the same place where everyone else is coming and going, so you can´t hide a a shup.

The worst you could do is impede the return traffic, assuming this DB wasn't going to come to port but would instead get a data burst back and go away. Then this DB will have stayed some 20 minutes in-system, which may be enough time for a g-torp to manoeuvre to shoot it.

If such a system would have such a valuable information, it's also likely it has other DBs available to dispatch, and if the defenders saw the first one get blown to bits, they will definitely escort the second and take a different routing. It's going to be several hours of delay (because I assume the other DB wouldn't be standing ready with impellers up), but as others have said, it's quite unlikely that information is that time-critical. Four hours of delay in a journey taking four days (Lynx Terminus to Lynx System, for example) is probably not life-threatening.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:You might invest in companies in another star system - but you'd either be doing it as a long term buy and hold plan (where exact timing is largely irrelevant) or you'd have an agent, local to that system's stock exchange, empowered to do whatever quicker reaction trading you might need.

And so the DBs wouldn't seem to be a major factor in either of those.

Plus, shooting the DB is like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, because the DB will have transmitted everything that that system needed to know the moment it came out of hyperspace. You'd have to have the attacking ship within one million km of the emergence point (which granted will be on the hyperlimit or so close that it doesn't make a difference), but that's also the same place where everyone else is coming and going, so you can´t hide a a shup.

The worst you could do is impede the return traffic, assuming this DB wasn't going to come to port but would instead get a data burst back and go away. Then this DB will have stayed some 20 minutes in-system, which may be enough time for a g-torp to manoeuvre to shoot it.

If such a system would have such a valuable information, it's also likely it has other DBs available to dispatch, and if the defenders saw the first one get blown to bits, they will definitely escort the second and take a different routing. It's going to be several hours of delay (because I assume the other DB wouldn't be standing ready with impellers up), but as others have said, it's quite unlikely that information is that time-critical. Four hours of delay in a journey taking four days (Lynx Terminus to Lynx System, for example) is probably not life-threatening.

I think the real problems would come later. No navy (or nation) has as many dispatch or courier ships as it would really like; and losses to them would lead to being even more shorthanded.

At that point they have to figure out how to prioritize and balance the remaining DB capacity - but that would pretty much need to lead to some tradeoff between delays in passing data and simply cutting some systems off from routine DB routes; in order to prioritize the remaining hulls on the most critical routes or missions. (At least until the yards can crank out replacement craft)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Something has always bothered me. In the HV, what prevents a navy from destroying an enemy's dispatch boats as a more direct way of attacking their economy?

In the case of Manticore and Haven, each of their economies were probably tied to the other in some respects. As well as the SL. But when it comes to the MA, why wouldn't the MAN target all of the GA's dispatch boats? I don't know whether there is some unspoken or written treaties where DBs are off limits, but I know the MAN would care less about either.

If the countries were already at war then (except maybe for diplomatic dispatch boats) they're free to (try to) destroy each others dispatch boats. Of course the dispatch boats (except for navy couriers) probably stay well away from the front lines and it's fairly hard to find or catch them.

They may stay far away from the front lines, if war has been declared, by formal declaration or by flaming datum. But they probably do not stay away from each other. In fact, I imagine DBs are gathered together in one sector in the system set aside for them, like cabs are gathered together at an airport. A streak boat can simply follow either of the other DBs into hyper. So, I was thinking more like run and gun them down in hyper. In hyper in the same band their speed is equal. But the route of each DB is probably known. So, a streak drive can simply kick it up into the iota band and overtake the target then drop back down into the previous band and allow the target to approach from behind while preparing to blast it with the unobtrusive energy weapon that [i] shouldn't[/b] be there.

Jonathan_S wrote:If you try to hit them in a neutral system when they're carrying dispatches there you risk bringing the neutral into the war against you -- as you just committed a violation of their sovereignty.

And if you're trying to wreck an opponent's economy before declaration of war -- well, ambushing their dispatch boat is an act of war and is likely to lead to them sending their navy against your systems. And if you are willing to start a war now there are more impactful targets for your initial strikes than some scattered dispatch boats.

Now the MAlign might be a bit different, as nobody knows where they are. If they're willing to abandon any hope of convincing people that Galton was the head of the snake then sure, they can start trying to pick off dispatch boats using their spider ships and nobody would be able to retaliate (at least not until Darius was found). OTOH if they're willing to spend the time to insert spider ships into systems to ambush dispatch boats why limit their economic damage to just those? Why not blow away the orbitals, freight handling stations, merchants, and any navy vessels that they can?

I doubt the MAN will care about committing acts of war. They are hidden, and who will know who committed the attacks anyway? In fact, this new kind of economic attack will weaken economies all over the galaxy. Perfect for the MA.

Theemile wrote:

penny wrote:I am not suggesting they limit their attacks to only DBs, inasmuch as include the DBs on the menu. If the dispatch boats are not checking in all over the galaxy, it seems the entire HV's economics should go haywire.

The MA's armed streak drive DBs can run and gun the GA's DBs down.

1) by definition, DBs have no offensive weapons
a) they have no mass available for them
b) the reason why they are allowed to go everywhere with immunity is they don't have any weapons on them.

2) Steak DBs are no faster in the same region of space than a normal DB. They can just go into other regions that allow them to get from point a to b faster. It's like taking the highway vs being stuck in traffic. Yes, they might get to the destination first, but this is hyperspace, there is no specific space where a DB will exit to guarantee an interception

I agree that they shouldn't have a weapon aboard. The fact that they do, together with the fact that they also enjoy diplomatic immunity means nobody will check for an energy weapon. An energy weapon that does not have to be so powerful to destroy any other mere DB. I have always posited that a streak drive is armed to prevent capture. Streak drives have a suicide by cop mentality.

Dispatch boats are a creature of habit. Financial DBs are a necessary creature of habit following regular routes.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I am not suggesting they limit their attacks to only DBs, inasmuch as include the DBs on the menu. If the dispatch boats are not checking in all over the galaxy, it seems the entire HV's economics should go haywire.

You're talking about attacking DBs inside of the GA volume. That means the DB is not the ship that the attacker needs to worry about, but instead the defenders that will be around, be it in the for of LACs or picket destroyers and cruisers. An attacker needs to operate like a pirate and lie doggo, waiting for the DB to translate from alpha, while other ships may be appearing and may detect it. So it can't be too close.

Though there's a good chance that DBs keep a schedule.

Invisible ships can eliminate DBs in some areas on the strategic map. An invisible pirate! Heavens! No!

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:There is a reason I decided to use this old thread for the thought. Stock market quotes emanating from key financial hubs around the galaxy, like the MBS, are very high priority and very confidential. On Wall Street, time is money. If the latest stock quotes are disseminated using very slow means of travel like freighters, then someone like the "Dukes" can get to a system much quicker with a Dispatch Boat or an even faster Dispatch boat and corner the market.

Time is money in the financial sector.

I doubt the Honorverse financial sector is going to be trying to trade in interstellar stock exchanges via the remove of a dispatch boat. They're fast, but even the very fastest possible link between major markets would probably be Manticore to Beowulf, and that's on the order of 15-20 minutes delay each way (using FTL Hermes buoy relays from the planet to the Junction, jumping a ship through immediately with the data, then FTL to the other planet). Anybody else with a junction is looking at a minimum of 10+ hours each way (lightspeed radio replacing FTL).
And to any place without a convenient wormhole the fastest data can travel between the markets is days to months.

You might invest in companies in another star system - but you'd either be doing it as a long term buy and hold plan (where exact timing is largely irrelevant) or you'd have an agent, local to that system's stock exchange, empowered to do whatever quicker reaction trading you might need.

And so the DBs wouldn't seem to be a major factor in either of those.

I don't think you are considering the bigger picture of the entire financial model. Someone cannot be allowed to have firsthand knowledge of stock quotes and commodities too far ahead of time in order to corner entire markets.

Cornering the market means buying up a particular product because you know its price and availability ahead of time. I can not imagine what kinds of profit can be made on a single freighter of goods negotiated at rock bottom prices. But buying low and selling high is easy to do when insider trading (made possible by inside information gathered from interior lines of communication and faster travel) has given you the upcoming prices and performance of commodities. I would imagine that "Wall Street" data is critical throughout the galaxy. If certain information allows an entity to buy up a single, much needed and/or sought after commodity, that cannot be good for the galaxy.

Take for instance our very own pandemic. Companies and private individuals to boot, cornered the market on masks and toilet paper. Remember how expensive a single disposable mask became during the pandemic? A single disposable mask was selling for $10 in some places. More in others! And private individuals were selling rolls of toilet paper for $3 to $5 a roll! You cannot allow knowledge of a pandemic and projected shortages to be among information that some heartless entity possesses too far ahead of time.

Having a single entity controlling supply and demand can cripple economies.

penny wrote:I don't think you are considering the bigger picture of the entire financial model. Someone cannot be allowed to have firsthand knowledge of stock quotes and commodities too far ahead of time in order to corner entire markets.

Indeed, someone with a faster ship could go from a location where some production is going well or poorly to a location where investments happen, and be able to short or go long on financial products, reaping a lot of money in the process. In fact, this may be a way that the MAlign had been making money in the past couple of decades.

But I don't think they had enough streak DBs and couriers of their own to watch for all potential market opportunities and in time. It basically means having one per large production system staying there at all times until the opportunity arose.

That's different from trying to disrupt communications for a single, specific entity that the belligerent is fighting.

penny wrote:Invisible ships can eliminate DBs in some areas on the strategic map. An invisible pirate! Heavens! No!

I meant it would have to use the tactics of a pirate, not to be a pirate. The only way it can catch a DB that stays only 20 minutes in system is to lie doggo near the arrival point.

If the DB is not time-sensitive, it will come into orbit, refuel and maybe allow the crew to disembark. That would mean a 12-hour turnaround time minimum. With those times, it would be possible to launch a g-torp from far away and let it slowly come into range, then fire at the DB. Or just fire a Hasta III at low speeds; there's no need for g-torp in this case.

penny wrote:So, I was thinking more like run and gun them down in hyper. In hyper in the same band their speed is equal. But the route of each DB is probably known. So, a streak drive can simply kick it up into the iota band and overtake the target then drop back down into the previous band and allow the target to approach from behind while preparing to blast it with the unobtrusive energy weapon that [i] shouldn't[/b] be there.

That's possible, but given we haven't heard much of hyperspace battles, it seems they are difficult to produce. Hyperspace battles happen at specific points in hyperspace, like entry and exit points of grav waves. So I would conclude that the issue is hyperspace travel is too unpredictable to do so anywhere else, the target may have veered off course and thus be sufficiently far away to be impossible to spot and engage in time (in cruise, they're making 0.5 or 0.6c).

Why battles don't happen in hyperspace near the hyperlimits I don't know. I haven't heard any reason why they shouldn't be possible, and yet we haven't heard about them at all.

A great number of people have been trying to develop communications links inside "regular" channels and methods for millennia. Homing pigeons come to mind. So do semaphore systems. Reuters was using such things in 19th century Europe for both news and financial information.

DBs and other ships can and do use burst transmission of messages and data to push information to their owners/chains of command. You come out of hyperspace and fire off an encrypted message aimed at where the intended receiver should be when the transmission gets close enough to be received. Heck, you could use RDs to send massive amounts of information more securely than just an encrypted transmission but you are going to need to be operating mostly at the level of a system's military since most systems are not happy with random drones barreling in the direction of their inhabited planets.

Having significant impact on a system's economy can be done in a lot of ways but one is by picking off its commerce- or anybody's transports/freighters to damage its industries and markets. If you are only a pirate, you want to capture freighters then sell the ships and cargos (having held back anything you can use as supplies or materials for your own ship(s)) and avoid warships. The Alignment doesn't need to take that version. They can go into just pure commerce raiding with the primary goal of destroying both the ships and materials they carry. Pirates (and often commerce raiders) only find the crews and any passengers of their victims as liabilities unless they have some "safe" way of ransoming those people back to a company or family or system. One freighter a year that never delivers it cargo to Manticore (or the 1st place it would have called after Manticore does't have the same impact as having 1 fighter that represents 10 to 20% of the interstellar trade for some less affluent system and more likely to start a small cascade of business failures in that less robust system.
The Alignment wouldn't want anybody -at all- knowing they were the ones doing this. It IS possible that they could just put a crew on board captured ships and send them somewhere to essential broker out the stolen goods and the ship but, particularly as it's the Alignment, they would want to get rid of any humans on board. Too much of a security problem of keeping them alive to tell anybody anything. Sure, the Alignment could always make the ship disappear (instead of either destroying it outright or using pirate type fencing of the ship and cargo) but they could take the ship to some base and recycle it. It's mostly a question of operational security.
Of course with Silesia not being a pirate friendly enviornemt not, they would have to find somewhere else to traffic in stolen ships. Fun.

Brigade XO wrote:DBs and other ships can and do use burst transmission of messages and data to push information to their owners/chains of command. You come out of hyperspace and fire off an encrypted message aimed at where the intended receiver should be when the transmission gets close enough to be received. Heck, you could use RDs to send massive amounts of information more securely than just an encrypted transmission but you are going to need to be operating mostly at the level of a system's military since most systems are not happy with random drones barreling in the direction of their inhabited planets.\

Though the one place we've had a somewhat detailed look on how courier DBs operate (within the Pierre regime of the PRH) the DB seem to wait to send their secure messages until they've reached practical two-way communication range of the planet, or even planetary orbit, before they begin the message transfer and verification. Seemingly at that point they get notified how many messages (if any) require them to wait for immediate response. (So they know whether or not they can immediately move on).

While the message download, upload, and then confirmation that all messages arrived intact could be done from out by the hyper limit that would involve some very long message delays (especially if the encryption protocol required multiple round trip messages to establish the transmission protection and integrity keys) - as the hyper limit could be 10 light minutes or more from the inhabited planet. And the Peeps pretty clearly did not do that.

Of course, with only one example, we can't tell if that's a peculiarity of the Peep regime, or if that's pretty standard for everybody's high security message carriage by DBs.